Ryan Munsey: How to Master Mind & Emotions while Getting Fit - #61

May your actions always align with your values and goals.

That’s how Ryan Munsey signs his book, F*ck Your Feelings: Master Your Mind, Accomplish Anything and Become a More Significant Human

His background is in Food Science and Human Nutrition, but he skipped the clinical route in favor of personal training. He opted to work with those eager to achieve optimal performance.

As he saw people fail with their workout plans, he wondered, "Why do their actions not align with their goals? That question made him learn more about the psychological side of behavior change and performance.

In this episode, Ryan reveals lessons about how feelings drive decisions and how e can change our physiology to change our mental experience.

Quick Guide:
01:42 Introduction
09:14 The fascination with why people’s actions don’t align with their goals
12:59 Unpacking the reason why humans act inconsistently with their goals
20:18 Feelings as barriers to success
28:10 What happens in our bodies under the influence of neurochemicals?
25:12 The limbic system response and how much control we have
39:27 Mental exercises that can help us become self-aware
42:16 Few people set goals and even fewer people achieve them
45:36 Generational approach to awareness
48:21 Intentionality and commitment

Get to know our guest:
Ryan Munsey has a degree in Food Science and Human Nutrition. He has coached Olympic and professional athletes and Special Forces Operators. He hosts the podcast Better Human Project.

“ The magic bullet is the awareness. Right? It's catching yourself in the moment. Right? Awareness creates choice. And in that moment, we have a choice. Do I want to continue letting my feelings run the show? Or do I want to make an alternative decision? Do I want to choose aligned with goals and values? ”

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Learn more:

• Learn more about Dr. Ovadia's personalized health coaching
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• visit Jack Heald's website: CultYourBrand.com

Theme Song : Rage Against
Written & Performed by Logan Gritton & Colin Gailey
(c) 2016 Mercury Retro Recordings

Any use of this intellectual property for text and data mining or computational analysis including as training material for artificial intelligence systems is strictly prohibited without express written consent from Dr. Philip Ovadia.

Transcript

 S3E07: Ryan Munsey 

SUMMARY KEYWORDS 

people, phil, ryan, question, goals, feelings, limbic system, podcast, book, stated goals, meathead, hear, prefrontal cortex, awareness, aware, thinking, brain, called, raft, guess 

SPEAKERS 

Ryan Munsey, Female Age 61, Dr. Philip Ovadia, Jack Heald 

Announcer  00:10 

He was a morbidly obese surgeon destined for an operating table and an early death. Now he's a rebel MD who is Fabulously Fit and fighting to make America healthy again. This is Stay Off My Operating Table with Dr. Philip Ovadia. 

Jack Heald  00:37 

Well, according to the little thing up there at the top, we are live. Hey, folks, it's the Stay Off My Operating Table podcast. We have today the greatest excuse for recording late in the history of podcasts. I got an email from Phil about an hour and a half ago that said, “hey, I have to do emergency heart surgery. Is it okay if we push the podcast back an hour?” And I got all pissed off and said I can't believe he's postponing our podcast just to save someone's life. But I'm understanding so I said, Yeah, sure. That's fine, Phil. So how did it go? 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  01:17 

Everything went well. Glad to say. 

Jack Heald  01:21 

That just occurred to me as I asked that, that there's really only one answer to that question. 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  01:26 

Hopefully. 

Jack Heald  01:29 

Lost the patient. That's what I got through early. Okay. Ah, this is my 27th cup of coffee today. Can you tell? All right, today we have... Who do we have Phil and tell us why he's here? 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  01:43 

Well, we have Ryan Munsey today. And you're not going to need the extra caffeine for this discussion. This discussion will give you more than enough energy. I met Ryan a few months ago when I was speaking at an event, Momentum in the Mountains, in the western mountains of Virginia. And Ryan was there. And Ryan has his own podcast and had all of the speakers from the event on the podcast. It was myself; it was Vinnie Tortorich, it was Cynthia Thurlow. And it was Mark Cucuzzella. And we've had all of those people except Mark on the podcast. Yeah, we're gonna have to correct that soon. Mark can be a little shy, I guess then got to get him on the podcast very soon as well. But Ryan, I'm going to say has probably the best book title I've ever seen. Maybe it's second to mine, but I think I'm gonna give him the win on this one. His book is called Fuck Your Feelings. And hopefully... 

Jack Heald  02:55 

Is that how you pronounce that, I was wondering. 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  02:57 

Hopefully that doesn't get us censored on YouTube. But Ryan has an extensive history with food science, nutrition, personal training, and really elite human performance. So excited to hear more about all of that. And Ryan, why don’t you fill in a little bit of the gaps. Give us some of your background and introduce yourself to the audience for us. 

Jack Heald  03:25 

I want to jump in here. I want to hear Ryan say, before he does any of that, why he thinks he's here. 

Ryan Munsey  03:35 

Well, am I not here to talk about those things that Phil just mentioned? 

Jack Heald  03:41 

I don't know. I’m just wondering what you think the reason is. 

Ryan Munsey  03:46 

Today is National Coffee Day and maybe we're going to talk about 27 cups of coffee. As Phil said, my name is Ryan Munsey. I've been, for as long as I can remember, obsessed with, fascinated by human potential, human performance. I have a degree in Food Science and Human Nutrition. That's a dietetics degree. I would be a registered dietician if I did the internship after school, but when I was in school, I realized very quickly that the if folks have not majored in nutrition, half of the curriculum is science based, the other half of the curriculum is the nutrition classes. And what we were being taught in the nutrition classes did not match with what we were learning in the science classes. So, you're taking BioChem and metabolism and you know all this anatomy and physiology and then you've got a teacher who is borderline morbidly obese saying all foods fit, there are no bad foods. If somebody, when you take a class called MNT, Medical Nutrition and Therapy. And so, in that class, you learn how to create diets for people with specific medical conditions. And obviously diabetes is one that is of great concern. And so, if somebody is diabetic, what we learned was that we were going to reduce carbohydrates from 60% of their calories, all the way down to 50% of their calories. And I can see from Jack's reaction that yes. And so here I am, I'm sitting in the back of your class, I'm mixing up avocados and a can of tuna, and everybody in the front of the class is turning around and, “man, that stinks.” And so, I'm the kid that I'm doing the research on my own. And I'm listening in science class, and I go in nutrition, and I'm raising my hand and I'm like, well, what about this and how, and I was not the teacher's favorite. And so, for that reason, when I finished school, I did not want to pay to do the insurance internship to kind of join that orthodoxy. So, I had an opportunity... Thank you. Well, the other thing that really drove that decision for me was, I knew, then, that if I went the clinical route, that I would be talking to people who really weren't interested in what I had to say and I'm sure Phil and Jack, I'm not sure your background, maybe you can relate to this. But the guy that has a heart attack and is in the hospital, and then the RD comes in and says, okay, well we're going to take away all your fast food, and we're gonna do this and the average person, maybe not your podcast listeners, but the average person doesn't want to make those lifestyle changes. I didn't want to feel that frustration. I didn't want to bang my head against the wall every single day for the rest of my life with that demographic. I wanted to be working with folks who were interested in and opting into sort of tip of the spear optimal performance type stuff. I'm, like I said, I'm fascinated with this stuff. So, the idea of someone learning a better way, and then not immediately implementing it is so foreign to me. And so, like I said, I just I wanted to be in that space and in that realm, and it took a while to carve out some space or a space for myself in that realm. I did some bodybuilding type stuff. That led to personal training in New York, I moved back home to Roanoke, Virginia, started my own gym looked like a CrossFit gym. It was a big warehouse style Performance Training Facility, wasn't CrossFit. Wrote for some magazines that people are familiar with. 

Ryan Munsey  07:45 

Sold in the gym in 2016, started hosting a podcast, did a couple of kind of consulting relationship work with some startups in the supplement and biohacking space still in that kind of health and wellness and optimal performance optimization realm. And through that, I got to interview some amazing people, got to work with Olympic athletes, Special Forces operators. I got to talk to researchers and academics and learn really sort of, on one side, the theory of high performance and then on the other side, the application. And as I was losing my fascination with being in the gym, it was similar to what frustrations I was just talking about, where even in that setting, you'd have people come in on Monday morning, and they're saying, “Well, Ryan, I know we have a plan. And I fell off the wagon, and it's Monday, I need to undo the damage that I did over the weekend.” And I started to become more fascinated with that question of why are your actions not aligned with the goals that you come in here and tell me that you want? The psychological side of behavior change and performance really started to fascinate me more than the X's and O's which strengthen conditioning. 

Jack Heald  09:09 

I'm going to ask you to repeat that question you had for yourself because that's a profound question. 

Ryan Munsey  09:14 

That I'm more fascinated, or I became fascinated with why people's actions didn't match or align with their goals. And that's actually how I signed most of my books. I don't know if Phil has the one that I signed for him but I... So, the book is called Fuck Your Feelings. But we can get into some of that as the discussion goes. But really what I want for people is what that quote, turned that question into a statement and I signed the books. May your actions always align with your values and goals. That's all I want for people and the book is a user's manual to help people understand what's going on between our ears because we're not given that. You've got a user's manual for your phone, your computer, your dishwasher, but nobody gives you one for the human mind and body. And so, I want people to be able to understand what's going on. So that then we can start to work towards being in the driver's seat, being in control, and then eventually getting to that point of mastery. 

Jack Heald  10:23 

I was reading. I just want to comment, Phil, real quick. I was reading some of the reviews of your book. And one of the complaints was he spent the first half of the book explaining the brain to us, I didn't want to do that. I just wanted that... And not having the context that you just delivered. I was like, that's, I mean, I don't know. But now I get it. Oh, my God. And I'm, I want to hear all about this. Phil, so it's your shift, please interrupt me? 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  10:56 

Well, I was just gonna say more so than the title of the book, even the subtitle, “Master Your Mind, Accomplish Any Goal and Become A More Significant Human,” again, it's just a great narrative for people to pay attention to because certainly what I see over and over again, whether you're talking about the patients that I'm doing heart surgery on or the patients that I'm trying to keep off of my operating table, and prevent them from developing heart disease, or prevent them from needing heart surgery, over and over, we tend to focus sort of, on the mechanics of things, eat this, don't eat this, count this, track this. And we don't spend nearly enough time and effort on the mindset. And ultimately, what I see over and over again, is if the mindset isn't there, the mechanics aren't going to matter. You really got to get that mindset first. And that's the reason that I put in my book, the first principle of metabolic health that I tell people to focus on is thinking of your health as a system, not as a goal. Getting that mindset right, I think is so important. So, I love that your book took a similar approach to all of this. 

Ryan Munsey  12:28 

When you spoke at the Momentum in the Mountains, that's one of the things that really resonated with me. And I think I even told you that Steve Fullerton, Steven Summers put the event on. Steve looked at me and you were talking about personal sovereignty and taking responsibility and being accountable for your own health. And Steve looked at me, and he says, like that sounds like something you would say, and I was like, it does, I like this guy. So, I was, we were kind of on the same wavelength. And I really enjoyed what you had to say. 

Jack Heald  12:59 

All right. So, there's been many times I've wished we were doing a live stream. But this is the time when, oh, my God, I was so wish this was live. So, we could have the folks you're going to hear that question you posed, why don't your actions align with your stated goals? The lines would be lighting up right now. So, I've got to kind of anticipate some of the questions that people in recording, listening to the recording are going to ask. So, the first thing I want to ask is to expand on that question, or more accurately, unpack that. What are the obstacles? What's going on between our ears that causes us to act in ways inconsistent with our stated goals? 

Ryan Munsey  13:54 

That phrase is perfect, right? Acting in ways that are inconsistent with our stated goals. So, I'm going to explain a little bit about where the title came from. And get into some of the he explained how the brain works complaints. And so, the title, I actually tried very hard to come up with a different title. We had multiple working titles, but it just, it kept coming back to this one for three reasons. One, it's self-talk, I say it to myself. Two, it's great marketing. If you are walking... Look, you got to sell books, right? If nobody reads it, it doesn't matter what's in it, kind of like what Phil said with the mechanics. If you're not doing it, it doesn't matter how great the mechanics are. And so, I've got to get you to stop scrolling on Amazon or I've got to get you to stop walking in a bookstore and then you pick it up. Okay. Now the subtitle, okay, you're interested and you're going to read it right? Well, then the third reason is the answer to your question. The thing that really gets in the way of acting congruently with our goals and values are our feelings. And so, if we get into some of this research, there's a cognitive, behavioral, I forgot its full title. Antonio Damasio is the guy's name, super smart guy, studies the brain, had a patient who had a tumor on the ventromedial prefrontal cortex. And when the tumor was removed, he lost the ability to make simple decisions. And so, this was the patient that led Damasio to his discovery that a large percentage of our feelings or I’m sorry, a large percentage of our decisions are made based on how we feel in that given moment. So, this, this patient, Elliott was unable to decide where we want to go for lunch or what he wanted to wear that day. And the number that Damasio gives is 95%. So, 95% of our decisions are made based on how we feel in that moment. And I've had people challenge that and they say, how do you know? And is that an N equals one? Well, look, it could be 80, it could be 85, it could be 75. The bottom line is an overwhelming majority of our decisions are made based on how we feel right then. And so, if we take that, and we overlay that onto large goals, life goals, the bigger the goal, the longer it's going to take to realize that goal, right? And that means the bigger the timeline, the more micro decisions along the way that have to go right, that have to be aligned with the thing that you're saying. I always use the example in the Olympic athlete because the Olympic Games only occur every four years. And you don't just say, hey I'm going to compete in the next Olympics, right? Most Olympic athletes start at a 10, 12, very young age. And they'll train for 5, 10 years before their first games. And if they're lucky, like, if you're Michael Phelps, you get to what was it four or five? Let's call it five, that's 20 years as an Olympian plus 10 years of training before you got there. That's 30 years of showing up every day doing the workouts, eating the foods. And everybody sees his diet. They're like, oh, I'd love to be able to eat 10,000 calories a day. Trust me, you wouldn't, I have to eat 4000 calories a day. And it's a pain in the butt. Right? You don't want to eat that. And so again, like it's all those... 

Jack Heald  17:28 

But you do that because, you eat the 4000 calories that's a pain in the butt, because it's consistent with the long-term goals that you have? 

Ryan Munsey  17:42 

Absolutely, absolutely. And so, again, just kind of coming back to how feelings drive our decisions. The next step in this is understanding, so okay, if a majority of our feelings... I'm trained as a scientist, I think like a scientist, so I read that, I find that out. Okay, well, this is the thing that's driving a majority of our decisions. Well, what really our feelings? I mean, you think you know, we think we know, we can give examples of feelings. But what was really fascinating to learn was that neuroscience defines feelings as a mental experience of a physiological state. Mental experience of a physiological state. Well, as we've already established, I come from a background in health and wellness and fitness, I know how to change my physiological state instantly, right? So right away, we've got a clue, if you can change your physiology, you can change your mental experience. So, if I put 30 seconds on the clock, and say, You guys have to do as many burpees as you can in 30 seconds, your physiology will be different in 30 seconds, and your mental state will also be different. 

Jack Heald  18:55 

Now, I can guarantee you that. 

Ryan Munsey  18:58 

Right? And I always use, I mean, when we give examples, we try to go to an extreme to make the point, right, but the thing to take away from that is movement is something that can change physiology, and it can help us shift our states, right? And so, part of the book is explaining these tools in the toolbox that we can use to shift our state in the acute moments. I think of states as weather, and then traits, these are long term characteristics, qualities of a person, like climate, right? And so, if we can shift our, there are certain tools, something like meditation, for example, that can be a state shifter acutely, but also chronically has a positive impact on the brain. Right? We know that people who meditate for their entire life are spared age-related temporal mass loss above certain ages, right? So, these are things that, we're looking for tools that both shifts state and positively impact traits, not just saying, oh, hey, let me chug Red bull and change my state. 

Jack Heald  20:12 

Phil, you better jump in here because I'm gonna just dominate the questions. 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  20:18 

So, do you think that there are feelings, are some feelings, I guess, more powerful or more important than others? And I'm certainly thinking around fear. And what I find over and over again, is one of the big reasons that people don't succeed is because of fear. But it's interesting that sometimes they're afraid of failing. And other times, they're afraid of succeeding. And both can certainly get in the way of, of success. But I would love to hear your perspective on are there some feelings that, I guess, are more of a barrier than other feelings? 

Ryan Munsey  21:04 

Sure. And before we get into specific feelings, I think is worth taking a step back and just throwing that disclaimer in that feelings aren't inherently bad, right? Feelings have survived evolution, because they serve a purpose, right? It's a dashboard light, it's saying, hey, put your attention over here, there's something going on. The problem is, it's a self-regulating system. And as we've seen, any self-regulating system has problems, not overstepping its bounds. So, what we want to do is we want to bring awareness to our feelings. 

Jack Heald  21:37 

You're gonna have to open that one up. It's a self-regulating system. And that causes problems. Please unpack that for? 

Ryan Munsey  21:48 

Well, what changed the context of the conversation, right? And let's say the government was entirely self-regulating, and they didn't have to answer to anybody. They just do whatever they want. 

Jack Heald  21:58 

Okay. So, what you're saying is that the emotional system, when left to itself, is going to drive off into the ditch now and then, and with possibly catastrophic results, and it needs an external system? 

Ryan Munsey  22:16 

And that's the prefrontal cortex, right? That's the newer, more evolved portion of the brain. So, we want the prefrontal cortex to be running the show, not the limbic system, right? The old, the lizard brain. And so that's also in the book. That's part of the way I explained the brain. But to Phil's question, you're absolutely right. I think fear shows up more than any other emotion as one that long term can hold people back or negatively impact our ability to pursue the things that we say we want, or think we want. I think in an acute setting... There's an old marketing adage that people will either move towards pleasure or away from pain, right? And in the moment, most people will choose what they want, right then, more than what they want most. And so, if you are tired, if you've had a really long day, if you're drained, it's been a tough week, and you come home on Thursday night, the easiest thing to do is lay on the couch, put on the TV, turn off your brain, scroll on social media, eat the easiest thing, right? The hardest thing to do is to not turn on the TV, to cook a healthy meal, to food prep for the next day, to do all those things that we really don't want to do. Right? And so that's just one example. But I think the, I don't want to say excuses, but the things that pop up as hurdles or adversity are time management, and that's where, again, time management is a big part of the book, teaching people how to manage their time, time management, energy, people aren't sleeping then they don't have the energy and so there's a lot of things that factor into this, but it really kind of does come down to the way we started this and like you said, Phil, if that mindset isn't there, if the commitment to yourself, the commitment to your standards and your goals isn't there, then it's really easy to choose what we want right now as opposed to what we want most. 

Jack Heald  24:52 

Okay, true stories time. Give us an illustration from your own life of when you recognize that your behavior was inconsistent with your stated goals, and to the revelation that you had about what was going on inside that allowed you to change that behavior. 

Ryan Munsey  25:21 

Yeah, that's a good one. I wrote this book in 2017. So, I think for the last five years, I've been practicing awareness to a level where I can generally catch myself in the moment. So, of late, what it looks like is, I don't want to do this, or I don't feel like doing this right now. But I know, if I don't do it right now, then I won't have what I need in order to succeed tomorrow. And I can't tolerate that. I won't put up with that. I've got to get it done. So, I'm gonna do it. 

Jack Heald  26:07 

I want to make sure I hear what you're saying. The guy who wrote the book, finished it five years ago, undoubtedly had been working on this for quite some time prior to that, has been practicing this for years, still deals with, on regular basis on a daily basis, I don't want to. So, this isn't a magic bullet. 

Ryan Munsey  26:34 

The magic bullet is the awareness. Right? It's catching yourself in the moment. Right? Awareness creates choice. And in that moment, we have a choice. Do I want to continue letting my feelings run the show? Or do I want to make an alternative decision? Do I want to choose aligned with goals and values? 

Jack Heald  26:58 

My wife regularly will say when we're discussing things that we want to accomplish, and we just had a conversation with a friend last night who's in a sticky situation. And she regularly says more than doers, we are deciders. And I hear the echoes of the same thing in what you just said. Once we can catch ourselves at the decision point, then choosing inexorably leads to the behavior. That's good. That's really good. This is deep. This is not at all like what I expected, Ryan. I did a little bit of research on you and I see ex-model, bodybuilder, gym owner, and I'm thinking, okay, we got a meathead coming on. All right. We hadn't had a meathead in a while. Why not? So 

Ryan Munsey  27:55 

I'm not your typical meathead. 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  27:59 

This meathead goes deep. Okay. Go ahead, Jack. 

Jack Heald  28:10 

I want to go back to Phil's initial question about the emotions that end up being hurdles. My day gig is I'm a marketing consultant. And so, I've spent a ton of time digging into the neurology of behavior from a marketing standpoint, and I know that I wrote an article a year, last month or so that where I talk about the paradox of dissatisfaction, satisfaction is mediated by serotonin. Happiness, which is not the same thing neurochemically as satisfaction is mediated by dopamine. As it turns out, dopamine is a far more enjoyable experience than serotonin. The way I illustrate that is the dopamine experience, which is what we really call happiness. You can trigger that with a shot with cocaine, it triggers the dopamine system. And to compare that with serotonin, nobody ever robbed a liquor store to feed a serotonin habit. So those are the positive sides. Phil's talking about what are the negative emotions and I'm thinking about fear, I'm assuming fear is most likely mediated by cortisol, which is a hell of a drug. If you've got problems that need to be solved, and a hell of a corrosive drug if misused. Can you dig into some of that? This may be too much, but can you dig into some of them, the neurochemical basis of these negative emotions, and what happens in our bodies under the influence of these neuro chemicals? 

Ryan Munsey  29:57 

Sure. So, that's a really interesting perspective through which to look at certain emotions. And yeah, especially fear. In my experience, the fear that I help people work with or deal with isn't acute. It's chronic. And it's more the narrative in their head. It's more of the internal dialogue. It's more of conditioning, previous life experiences, self-esteem, self-confidence, self-worth. It's more of a, it's almost like a therapy session, like, yeah, it gets pretty close to sitting on the couch and kind of delving into why do we think like this? Why is this our narrative very careful in the stories that we tell ourselves? I do think, in an acute setting, especially in the way that neuro chemicals would be involved, fear is going to be related to cortisol. I mean, they wouldn't, I don't know that will be directly I think, maybe Phil can double check this for me. But one of the stories I always tell when I give that disclaimer, I'm in a speech about feelings, surviving evolution and being very valuable, when I explain the difference between the limbic system and the prefrontal cortex, the limbic system is that lizard brain, it is always, always, always faster than the prefrontal cortex. That's the survival mechanism. So, if we are walking down a path in the woods, and you see a snake, what's the first thing you do if I'm right next to you? You see the snake but I don't, what's the first thing you do? Okay, are you worried about me at all? If you were, what would be your first move? 

Jack Heald  32:05 

To... To stop? Yes, throw my arm out and say... 

Ryan Munsey  32:11 

The Seinfeld stopped short. Right? The arm goes out in front of the other person. Why is there a physical movement before language? 

Jack Heald  32:21 

My guess is that the physical behavior is mediated by a more ancient part of the brain than the language part of our brain. 

Ryan Munsey  32:32 

Exactly. That's exactly right. And so that's why we always the arm goes out, and then it's stop, snake. So that's very beneficial in an acute setting, in a lifesaving situation. Now, when you walk past a pizza stand on New York City streets, and you smell pizza, or you walk past the bakery at Whole Foods and you smell cookies, the same thing happens. The limbic system responds first, oh, my God, that smells good. Oh, man, I want some of that. Then the prefrontal cortex kicks in and says, oh, but I'm not eating gluten. Oh, I'm on a diet. Oh, I shouldn't do that. Now, we start to get into the narrative, right? Folks really struggle with that difference, if we're not aware that we have these two systems, that we're always going to have those two reactions, one before the other. Right? And if you don't know that, you immediately associate or assign guilt, shame to the second, the second reaction being second, instead of being the first reaction, what's wrong with you? Why? And so now, that's where that guilt and that shame cycle comes in. Right? And so, years of that, or some of the other things that really pop up are when you asked me the question earlier, and I said, hey I don't feel like doing food prep, or I don't feel like going to the gym. Right? If I skip that today, maybe nobody else knows. But I know. 

Ryan Munsey  34:04 

And that starts to erode my self-confidence, right? What it really does is that it erodes my trust in myself, yeah, right? The ability to trust ourselves is kind of the same thing as self-confidence. A lot of people come to me and they say, hey, I want to be more confident, I want more self-confidence, understanding that the way we build self-confidence is the same way that we would build trust in somebody else. If I want you to trust me, I need to follow through on some things. I need to tell you; I'm going to do some things I need to show up. I need to do what I say I'm going to do, right? So, if we fail to do that for ourselves, we begin to erode our trust, our self-confidence, right? Our trust in ourselves our self-confidence. The more that happens, the more that spirals, right? And so, to your question about fear, I've found again, this has been my experience that a majority of the people I work with, it's more of their chronic narrative internal dialogue stuff, not the oh shit, there's a snake, I've got adrenaline and then epinephrine and cortisol and all that neuro chemical stuff. 

Jack Heald  35:08 

So, I'm guessing... I'm sorry, Phil. 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  35:12 

Sorry. I was just gonna ask how pliable you think that is? How, what capacity do people have to change? Can they? Can you really train yourself on that? I guess because as you said, this is limbic system stuff that we're dealing with. This is millions of years of evolution. How much control do we ultimately have over it? 

Ryan Munsey  35:42 

Well, and so the work is not in changing the limbic system, the work is in the awareness, right? It's understanding that that is how the limbic system works. Like you said, it's got millions of years of evolution. That's how we're wired. So, it's, once we understand that, hey, we're wired to do that, that's normal, it's natural, there's nothing wrong with that. Now we start to get into the assigning meaning portion of it, right? That's very pliable. That's neuroplasticity, right? We start to, again, it's awareness, you bring awareness to that thing that is happening. And then you just make a choice. Hey, do I want to continue to do it the way that I've always done it? Or do I want to look for a more, so, I always try to use developmental phrasing. So instead of saying, like, good, bad, or better or worse, like, let's look for a way of doing this that better serves my goals and boundaries, right? Instead of saying, is a potato good or bad, how can a potato be used? Or how can we fit potatoes into our plan, right? Less of like that binary blanket statement thinking and more of the developmental phrasing. But to your question, the limbic system, that lizard brain stuff, we're not going to change that, we just have to bring awareness, we have to understand that that's how it works, bringing awareness to that. And then the other side is extremely pliable, extremely neuroplastic. And with enough awareness and enough work, I think anybody can accomplish that or achieve that. And I think in extreme cases, where you've got extreme trauma, really horrible events, you're going to need to work through that with a professional and there may be more steps to that than what we're talking about here. 

Jack Heald  37:37 

Okay, so it occurs to me that this whole idea of the, of recognizing that we've basically got these two, these sections of our brain that are developed over different time periods. And, first of all, that's an extremely powerful concept. And I think it's tremendously powerful to just accept, hey, my lizard brain is doing exactly what it's supposed to do all the time. And I have the ability to override those instinctive visceral reactions if they do not serve my long-term purposes. I love that whole concept. Now, that leads naturally to this problem that anybody who's worked with trying to become more self-aware of phases, is there's all kinds of shit that's going on, that we're just not aware of. And oftentimes, it takes a hammer between the eyes to go, oh, look at how I'm thinking. So, the question that I've got, that's coming up through all this verbiage is this, do you have a method or a technique or a practice to help us individually kind of wake up out of that darkness that we're in and recognize what are the signs and symptoms that there's something going on where we're making an unconscious choice when we need to be making a conscious choice? Does that make sense is that question? 

Ryan Munsey  39:27 

Yeah, I think I know where you're going with that. I think I mean, first of all, everybody's stuff is so unique and varied. That it's almost impossible to give a prescription that works for everyone. But I know this is going to sound like I'm saying the same thing over and over again, but it really comes down to awareness. And so, the practice is learning how to sort of assume this witness perspective, start to think about how are other people seeing me? How am I moving through the world? How am I impacting others? Even asking that question are my actions aligned with my goals? If we can take that witness or objective viewpoint, think about being in an airplane, right, you're 30, 30,000 feet up, and you look down, everything looks different, right? So, if we can have that viewpoint of ourselves, and audit our actions, one of the things I always tell people is if I follow you around, if I said, hey, Jack, I'm going to come to your house, and I want you to write down your goals and your values. And then I'm going to follow you around for six weeks. And you haven't shown me those goals, values, right? It's your pick a card, any card trick, you write them down, and hide them, put them in your pocket, whatever, I don't see him. I follow you around for six weeks, and I audit your actions and how you spend your time. And based on what I see, I write down what I think your goals and values are. Is my list going to match your list? And if your actions are aligned, if you're choosing to spend your time in a way that is congruent with those things, chances are I mean, maybe I use a different word, but chances are, I'm going to be pretty close. Right? And so, I think just little mental exercises like that, where we can shift our perspective, and again, it brings more awareness to how we're doing these things. 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  41:34 

How big a problem do you think it is, that people may not even, I guess, know, their goals? For real. Like, oftentimes, they'll say, my goal is whatever. But that's not really their goal. They're just sort of saying that, or they're telling themselves that. When it comes to health, everyone says they want to Stay Off My Operating Table, but how many people actually want to Stay Off My Operating Table, and are kind of behaving, or taking action in such a manner? 

Ryan Munsey  42:16 

I was trying to flip through the book, there's a statistic in the book, and I don't remember the numbers, but to your point, very few people set and achieve goals, I think the number is 6%. And the way that that that works out is I think only 30% of people actually set goals, and then 20% achieve the goals that they set. So, 20% of 30 ends up being like 6% of the total population, right? So, and if that's wrong, then it's the other way around. But it's, it's about a quarter, right? And so, the values thing is very intriguing to me, too. When I go to an organization or a team, and I'm working with them. I'll have everybody else say raise your hand if you can tell me the core values of this organization or this company. Most people's hands go up, I'll say, okay, cool. Leave them in the air if you can tell me your core values as an individual. Hands go down. Usually, one, two, maybe three people, depending on the size of the room, it's single digit percentages where folks have thought about who they want to be, how they want to be, how they want to move through the world, what they want their legacy to be. Other cues that I'll give people for questions. If people are talking about you, what are the words that you would want them to use to describe you? Right? That's kind of how we get to what our values are. And if we haven't figured those out, if we haven't identified and defined those, just like with goals, it's hard for me to feel like you could have direction in life without knowing who you are and who you want to be, how you want to be. And goals come kind of secondary to that, right? So, we kind of have a loose trajectory, and then it's okay, here's the specific goal, and here's another goal. And then we start moving in that direction. We start working towards that. And again, without that, I mean, you might as well just be a raft in the middle of the ocean with no map and no sail. 

Jack Heald  44:44 

This is not at all what I thought this conversation is gonna be. This is fantastic. So, this may take us a little bit astray, but it's something I've been chewing on for a long time. Do you see, I'm assuming you work with clients of all ages, do you see a generational difference in in approaches to consciousness? In other words, are old farts like me more likely to be aware of X whereas 20-somethings are more likely to be aware of Y or is this like a universal human condition, at least in terms of generations? 

Ryan Munsey  45:36 

It's a really intriguing question. When it comes to consciousness, I think folks who are into it, it's one of those things where it doesn't matter what walk of life you come from, or how old you are. Consciousness is one of those things that, it's just, it's consciousness. Right? It is a little out there. It is a little deep, heavy, woo woo... 

Jack Heald  46:02 

I love it. We've got a woo woo meathead. This is gonna be the title. Ryan Munsey. Woo woo meathead. I love it. My wife is gonna love this one. 

Ryan Munsey  46:15 

Yeah, I don't know that the approaches to or the thoughts around consciousness are different based on generation, I think a lot of the... 

Jack Heald  46:30 

You're not getting a different quality of pushback if you've got a 20 something versus a 60 something, I guess that's what I'm asking, in terms of this coaching to hey, be aware, wake up, be conscious? 

Ryan Munsey  46:45 

No, I think, I think when people come to me, they're ready. And they want what we're going to work on. And I mean, we're pretty clear upfront, hey, like we're going to, sure we can we can tweak your diet, we can optimize your workout plan, and we'll work on time management, but the internal dialogue, the narrative, the “why are you not training your people the way you need to train them if you're a CEO?” those types of things are, I mean, people are ready for that, or otherwise, I don't think they're coming to me. So, there's not really push back there. 

Jack Heald  47:28 

So, what I'm hearing is that is that the techniques or the path or the tools or whatever you want to call it that you are advocating have application far beyond the merely physical, far beyond our physical health and well-being. They are much broader. Absolutely. Phil, what was the moment for you where you were suddenly aware, I know your story a little bit, because we've talked for quite a bit, but where the lights came on for you, the consciousness that you were aware that your behavior was inconsistent with your stated goals? And can you think back through that and walk through that process of becoming aware of it? 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  48:21 

Yeah, I mean, I think it does ultimately come back to the intentionality. And it was only, I had always, I guess, told myself that I didn't want to be obese, that I wanted to be healthier, but I wasn't truly, I guess, committed to that, and I wasn't, my actions weren't in line with what I was saying, ultimately, because while I would maybe pay a little better attention to my diet and do a little bit more exercise at times, I was never fully committed to that. And it was only, I mean, of course I talk about the sort of seminal event maybe with hearing Gary Todd's talk, but what I really realized in retrospect is it wasn't so much that I happen to hear Gary Todd’s talk. It was I heard Gary talk at a time when I was truly ready for change, truly, I think, committed to that change, recognizing that I was not serving my patients, I was not serving my family. Those are the things that ultimately, I think, made me open to hearing what Gary was saying. And one of the things I realized in working with people now is that if they're not ready to hear it, you're not going to change their mind they have to be ready to hear it. And so probably very much similar to the way that the people that find Ryan, and start working with Ryan, they have to be ready. It doesn't just happen sort of by accident that you come across Ryan, and in a similar way the people that I work with in my practice, find me. So, I think there's something very much to be said about that. But ultimately, I always come back to this intentionality piece, what I have come to realize is that so many people are going through life, and they are just sort of floating on that raft, like you were talking about, Ryan. And it's only certain people who are really steering their own raft, so to speak, and, and truly taking control of their lives, and having that sovereignty that I talked about at the conference, that I think ultimately ends up being the key to success. 

Ryan Munsey  51:22 

It's kind of a, it's a real red pill, blue pill moment there. And I guess to Jack's question before, I mean, I think the folks that have found me, the folks that find you or those that have taken the red pill have said Hey, I want to be in control. And I want to turn over every stone possible to optimize everything and learn this and learn that and, yeah, so. It's fascinating to me to see the difference in those that are kind of on that raft, and adrift, versus those that are kind of on a path and are going somewhere. 

Jack Heald  52:08 

So, the takeaway from this last three minutes is if you're listening to this podcast, congratulations. You've already self-selected as a member of an elite crew. And I'm only being about half kidding, as I say this, because there isn't, there's definitely an element of truth to that. Okay, Ryan, we generally try not to drag these things on forever. I would love to ask you many more questions about this whole mechanism of consciousness, decision making, feelings versus goals. My suspicion is that... Go. 

Ryan Munsey  52:52 

I was gonna say, I mean, I'd be glad to come back and we can do a live and have people ask questions. 

Jack Heald  52:56 

Oh, God, Phil, we are. It's about time we started doing live streams. 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  53:01 

I think we're, I think we're getting, we're ready for that. And I think Ryan would be a great one to... 

Jack Heald  53:09 

I want to get another one of our meatheads Vinnie Tortorich, because I think if we had did those back-to-back, we might break the internet. Okay. Ryan, how do folks, remind us the name of your book and how do folks find it. 

Ryan Munsey  53:27 

The book is called Fuck Your Feelings. It is available on Amazon and Audible, kind of the central hub for what I do is my website, RyanMunsey.com. Most active on Instagram for social media. I have a love hate relationship with it. But yeah, so, and then my podcast The Better Human Project. So, Phil's been on there, maybe Jack will get you on there too. 

Jack Heald  53:51 

I will come on as a subject, not as an object or something, whatever, I'm the one who needs help. All right. Well, as always, the contact information for our guests, Ryan Munsey will be available on the show notes. Remember, look for the title, the woo woo meathead that you can make that the title of your biography by the way. 

Ryan Munsey  54:13 

Okay, thank you, the royalties to you. 

Jack Heald  54:19 

I'll just live with the satisfaction of knowing that we made it all happen here. Phil, any last words before we sign off for the day? 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  54:29 

Another great conversation and ultimately, yeah, I hope that we are inspiring the people like you said, who have found this podcast to be more intentional, to improve their lives, just to become a more significant human as Ryan put it in his book subtitle. 

Jack Heald  54:58 

Nuff said. Well, Phil, this one surprised the hell out of me. It was fantastic. I was really dreading it. And it's turned out to be so good. For Philip Ovadia and Ryan Munsey, I'm Jack Heald. This is Stay Off My Operating Table podcast. Follow Dr. Phil. Yes, our Dr. Phil on Twitter @ifixhearts. His website is ifixhearts.co. I would encourage you to check that out and find out where you, he’s got a test on there where you can kind of evaluate yourself for your own metabolic health. And then check out his practice, his online practice at Ovadiahearthealth.com And we'll talk to you guys next time and hopefully live on the live stream here pretty soon. 

Jack Heald  55:55 

America is fat and sick and tired. 88% of Americans are metabolically unhealthy and at risk of a sudden heart attack. Are you one of them? Go to ifixhearts.co and take Dr. Ovadia’s metabolic health quiz. Learn specific steps you can take to reclaim your health, reduce your risk of heart attack, and stay off Dr. Ovadia’s operating table. This has been a production of 38 atoms