Stay Off My Operating Table

Dr. Scott Sherr: Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy & The Ultimate Guide to Health Optimization #155

• Dr. Scott Sherr • Episode 155

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In this episode, we explore the fascinating world of hyperbaric oxygen therapy (HBOT) with Dr. Scott Sherr, an expert in integrative medicine. Discover how this revolutionary approach to healing can optimize health, enhance performance and change your life.

Key Takeaways:
• Hyperbaric oxygen therapy can accelerate healing, boost energy production, and enhance athletic performance
• Methylene blue works synergistically with HBOT to improve cellular health and energy production
• Foundational health practices like nutrition, sleep, and stress management are crucial for optimal results
• Five cost-free strategies anyone can implement to improve their overall health

Resources and Links:
• Dr. Scott Sherr's website: https://drscottsherr.com
• Integrative HBOT: https://integrativehbot.com
• Health Optimization Medicine and Practice: https://homehope.org
• TRO Prescriptions (Methylene Blue products): https://troscriptions.com

Timestamps:
00:00:00 - Introduction to hyperbaric oxygen therapy
00:15:30 - Methylene blue and its benefits
00:30:45 - Performance enhancement applications
00:45:20 - Five free strategies for better health

Guest Bio:
Dr. Scott Sherr is an internal medicine physician specializing in hyperbaric oxygen therapy and integrative medicine. With a background as the son of a chiropractor, Dr. Sherr brings a unique perspective to conventional medicine. He is the Chief Operating Officer of a nonprofit organization training practitioners in health optimization medicine and practice. Dr. Sherr's expertise lies in combining various healing modalities, including HBOT, methylene blue therapy, and foundational health practices, to optimize patient outcomes.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome back to the Stay Off my Operating Table podcast with Dr Philip Ovadia. Today we have somebody who's going to talk about something. I hope that I have actually a lot of questions about Phil. Introduce our guest.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, sure thing. Really excited to have Dr Scott Scherr on the show today. I don't remember exactly how, but got introduced to Scott a while back. Scott is the host of the Smarter, not Harder, podcast.

Speaker 2:

One of those yeah, honored to guest on that show recently and wanted to have Scott on to talk about a lot of the interesting stuff he does. He has a background in internal medicine and maybe I'll let him talk a little bit about his background first and then we can get into some of the many interesting things that Scott has been doing.

Speaker 3:

Sure Happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Jack and Phil. So I'm an internal medicine physician, like you said, but I grew up the son of a chiropractor, so, very out of the box. My father is still a chiropractor in New York for 40 plus years, and I didn't really understand what conventional medicine was until I went to medical school, thinking that I knew something about it, but I knew absolutely nothing actually. So I ended up going to medical school in Baltimore, spent about 10 years there at the University of Maryland in my medical school and then residency, and when I was in my third year of medical school I rounded in a place called shock trauma, which is a facility there that does a lot of shock and trauma in Baltimore. It is well known for its gunshot wounds and, well, just gunshots in general and lots of trauma related to all that.

Speaker 3:

So I kind of knew going to medical school that I wasn't going to be a conventional doc. Obviously, given my background, I knew that I had a very significant runway in the world of alternative medicine. There was no such thing as functional medicine at that point, and so my, my, my high minded goal was to figure out a way to bridge that chasm between these major, major gaps in care as I saw it. Uh, but of course, when you're 20 years old you think you can conquer the world and and as soon as I got to medical school and started learning about dermatology and gastroenterology, I was like, oh, I can make a lot of money doing these things.

Speaker 3:

And then I found out about hyperbaric therapy at the Shock Trauma Center in Baltimore. I really enjoyed the technology. I saw some amazing things happen. People get better very fast from things like flesh-eating bacteria and carbon monoxide poisoning and severe burns and severe wounds and I got very interested in the technology and I finished my residency. I ended up specializing not specializing and just going directly to internal medicine. I didn't go and do any more fellowships after that. And then I specialized in hyperbaric oxygen therapy and been involved in that field for now a decade or so, doing more of an integrative approach that combines lots of different types of things together, not just the chambers. And then from there I evolved into signing on to be part of a nonprofit that's training practitioners on a foundational approach to health called Health Optimization, Medicine and Practice. And then that company has a for-profit entity called Troscriptions which makes numerous products in the performance biohacking and optimal performance space.

Speaker 2:

Wow, yeah, a lot to dig into that. You got into that two-minute intro, so maybe we'll start where you started with hyperbarics. Sure, so talk about HBOT, hyperbaric oxygen treatment or therapy. Talk about what that is first, and then maybe we can discuss some of its applications.

Speaker 3:

Have either of you ever been into a a chamber before, by chance or not? I have not you have. Yeah, why'd you go in?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm actually certified in hyperbaric medicine as well. Way back in the day, I got certified in hyperbaric medicine as well, but so I've I've been in a chamber and I, I I know a little bit about it, but it really hasn't come up on this show previously, so excited to talk about it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, did you even know that he had been in a chamber, jack, before?

Speaker 1:

Probably did not. This is literally the first time in 150, some episodes that the word hyperbaric has been uttered. So I'm really interested here.

Speaker 3:

It's funny, right, because it's a technology that's been around about 300 years in various forms, really, but really, from a medical technology it became famous and very, very therapeutic for people with the bends or decompression illness, right, so divers. And that's how the technology really became more of a medical technology. This is in the early 1900s, when they figured out a way to pressurize and make oxygen into a liquid, but the bends was something that started being an issue when people were building bridges. The most famous was the Brooklyn Bridge, and the Brooklyn Bridge was famous because people would come out of these. They were called caissons, these sunken down areas underneath the water to actually dig out the pylons for the bridge, and if they came up too fast in these elevators, they'd get these severe neurologic symptoms. Some were paralyzed Actually, the architect of the Brooklyn Bridge was paralyzed during the making of the bridge and then others that didn't die, actually, who went back to work the next day, had all their symptoms get better. And so it was around this time that they figured out this was related to oxygen and nitrogen and that if you put somebody back at that same ecosystem that they had the injury, that you could resolve their symptoms.

Speaker 3:

So that's how hyperbaric therapy started and then since the 1950s, it was actually used before Dr Phillips' time as a way to do bypass surgery, when there was no such thing as a bypass machine. So you had a hyperbaric rooms, a hyperbaric operating suite where you'd actually use a hyperbaric oxygen suite, and then this would hyperoxygenate the blood in these patients. So we would prevent some of the downstream effects of having to go through a bypass surgery without having a bypass machine, as it were. So obviously now we have bypass machines, so we don't use hyperbaric chambers, although I would argue, phil, that we probably should use it before cabbage surgeries, and it would potentially save both heart and brain, and there is some evidence to that.

Speaker 3:

So, anyway, so long story short is that hyperbaric therapy has been around a long time. It was used in the acute setting for multiple different things, but the main thing that's happening is that you're hyper-oxygenating the body, so you're getting a huge amount more oxygen into circulation, and you're doing that by combining increased inspired oxygen how much you're breathing with increased atmospheric pressure, and then we simulate the pressure you feel under a certain amount of seawater and that water that is very, very heavy. Then everybody's picked up a bucket of water, for example. They know that's heavy, and so if you're sunk down deep underneath the ocean 30 feet below, you look up all that water is exerting a significant amount of pressure, and so we can simulate that pressure in a chamber, without any water, obviously, and that pressure drives more oxygen, not only onto the red blood cells, which typically carry oxygen, but into the plasma or the liquid of the bloodstream.

Speaker 1:

Up to about 1200% more oxygen in circulation as a result, 12 times more oxygen, yep, okay. So what are the beneficial effects of doing this? How long do the effects last?

Speaker 3:

Good questions, so I can start there as well. Yeah, so the three things that are happening in a chamber are you're getting more oxygen in circulation. You're creating stress on the system by creating more what are called reactive oxygen species or free radicals. Everybody thinks those are bad, but they're not always bad If it's like exercise or high heat saunas and other things that can make you rebound to a more significant, optimal degree after using it. So increased oxygen, increased free radicals and increased pressure those three things are what's happening in the chamber. So the first one, very simple right More oxygen in circulation is a huge thing if you have an acute issue where there's low oxygen in some sort of area, so going on a bypass machine, heart attacks, strokes, traumatic brain injuries, spinal cord injuries, traumatic ischemia or traumatic partial amputation of a limb.

Speaker 3:

I saw this when I was in medical school and so if you can re-oxygenate that system or that tissue that's at risk before it dies, you can prevent it from dying or prevent something called reperfusion injury, which is when oxygen returns to a tissue that has been lacking of oxygen for a period of time. So in the acute setting, getting a lot of oxygen in circulation is a huge deal if you have an acute issue Now. Secondarily to that, you have all this oxygen coming in the system and creating some stress on the system. This is an immediate stress in the system and then it's a long-term beneficial stress. If you go in the chamber for multiple times, you get something called a shift in your expression of your DNA, also known as your epigenetics. Okay so, but in the short term, all that oxygen is causing this free radical burst and that free radical burst is going to cause stem cells to release. It's going to decrease inflammation, it's going to fight infection as well and it's going to increase immune system function.

Speaker 3:

So you have the capacity to do all of these things in the chamber immediately. Then, long-term, that oxygen stress is causing that shift in your epigenetics. So you not only get reversing of low oxygen states immediately, but you get new blood vessels forming in tissue. You can rebuild the scaffolding of tissue or areas that have been injured. So new blood vessels, new stem cells that mature into the cells that need to be matured, inflammatory pathway downregulation. So you can have people that have had inflammation for a long period of time. You can downregulate or decrease all that inflammation by going into a chamber and downregulating some of those factors, these things called interleukins and TNF-alpha and others that can be very, very detrimental to healing if they're ongoing for longer periods of time, and then your immune system is working better, you're preventing fibrosis or the scarring of tissue, you're-.

Speaker 1:

Back up, back up of tissue, back up one step. Your immune system is working better. Why? Why is your immune system working better?

Speaker 3:

The immune system works better because what happens is there is a creation of, and then the modulation acceleration of, all the stages of wound healing. So the first stage of wound healing is that you have to bring certain cells to the area, neutrophils and macrophages specifically. These are types of white blood cells that go into an area and clean it up after there's been an injury. Once that happens, you have different types of cells that come into the area to start improving the overall ecosystem of the tissue. And this is the enhancement of the immune system over a longer period of time. What iBarrick therapy does but it basically revs it up and then allows it to kind of work its way and work its magic to help us heal Does it just make it faster, or does it actually amplify the effects, or both?

Speaker 3:

It can be both. It depends on the situation. But there have been some studies, for example, on patients that get surgery right. If you get a surgical procedure, this is a what we call an iatrogenic wound. This is something we're doing to you and as a result of that wound you're going to have some element of low oxygen state and then you're going to get a regular healing process. But if you can get somebody to go into a hyperbaric chamber ideally two to three sessions before the surgery and then three to five sessions afterwards, to three sessions before the surgery and then three to five sessions afterwards you can decrease, you can improve healing time up to about 50%, and so it's just accelerating the process of our body's ability to heal and heal faster.

Speaker 1:

How long does that effect last?

Speaker 3:

So it depends on the issue, right?

Speaker 3:

So if it's an acute issue where you're having acute reason to go into the chamber, it's not it doesn't matter in the sense of so if it's an acute issue where you're having acute reason to go into the chamber, it's not it doesn't matter in the sense of how long it's going to last.

Speaker 3:

It's going to help you rebuild that tissue, heal yourself, and then you're good, for example.

Speaker 3:

So but if it's a long-term issue, if it's something that's been going on a long time, then it's an entirely different calculation, permutation and framework that I use to think about that, because oftentimes people that are coming in with chronic issues have other things they need to address, like their diet, as Phil knows, and other things that if I put them in a hyperbaric chamber and they're coming in with mild cognitive impairment and they think that a couple of hyperbaric sessions are going to do anything, the answer is no, because you have to have or at least not as much as we would like, and even if it does help you, it very likely won't help you over the long-term.

Speaker 3:

So a lot of it depends on what you're doing before, during and after hyperbaric therapy to truly leverage the technology and to try to help you recover. But in essence, the answer is that it can be a long-term benefit for people with chronic issues, but oftentimes they have to be thinking more than just about what's going on or what they're doing in a chamber, but what they're doing otherwise understand it is basically the immune system is working in overdrive and causing all kinds of inflammation.

Speaker 1:

Is this the kind of thing that hyperbaric therapy would help?

Speaker 3:

Well, have they tried carnivore diet with your friend Phil over here? I know Well. So what it comes down to is that I've seen, actually a number of patients with rheumatoid arthritis over the years, and hyperbaric therapy is not a cure for this, but it can vastly improve inflammation and significantly but it will not be a long-term fix. Oftentimes these patients have to come back in for hyperbaric therapy periodically to maintain the benefits. But again, this is something that is very different for me than most people in the hyperbaric community.

Speaker 3:

In fact, I got disinvited from speaking at a hyperbaric conference because the title of my lecture was going to be please do not put them in the chamber. So the reason for that is that I don't think that it's not a matter of if, but it's a matter of when. When it comes to hyperbaric therapy and if, and I got burned way too many times when I first started doing this, about a decade, having people go into the chamber without doing some of the optimization strategies that I now do foundationally for my patients whenever they'll allow me to because if you can't make energy well, if you can't detox well, if you are especially those two things, then you're not going to be able to really leverage the technology itself Energy production and detox.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, exactly, because what happens is-.

Speaker 1:

I'll pack that for Joe, Sixpack okay.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so when all of us know that we need oxygen in the system to make energy, right, without oxygen, we die very quickly, and the problem with a lot of us is that the part of our cells, the mitochondria that are making energy, is not working very well. 95% of us have some element of mitochondrial dysfunction, some element of that powerhouse, that energy battery of our cells not working, and so if I throw a huge amount more oxygen in circulation to somebody that already can't make energy, well, then what's going to happen is that, instead of making energy, they're just going to make a huge amount of what are called reactive oxygen species or energy waste products, or, as a result of their system not working very well, that is not going to make energy effectively is what it comes down to. And then, on the other end of it, when we make energy, when we make ATP, which is our cellular currency, we also make what are called waste products of energy metabolism, and some of those are called reactive oxygen species or free radicals, oxidative stress, inflammation, all kinds of very similar stuff, and so to neutralize that, we need to be able to respond with antioxidants like our vitamin C, our vitamin D. Melatonin is an antioxidant, glutathione.

Speaker 3:

These are antioxidants and so if we can't respond with these with severe, significant oxidative load, inflammatory stress already and you're giving them a huge amount more oxygen, you may get into a place where you make them feel worse. But there's no upside to it. Over the longterm Most people for the first two to three sessions when they start maybe a little bit longer than that will feel a little bit worse when they first start because that body though the body, has to respond to that oxygen stress. It takes about three days for it to do that. So a mild amount of stress is common. But I've seen people that get debilitated after going into a hyperbaric chamber and that's, you know, usually diagnostic to me that they need more support.

Speaker 2:

yeah, so how might people figure out if they have these mitochondrial problems that could then potentially be helped by hyperbaric and, as you said, combined with other stuff?

Speaker 3:

is the best to use hyperbaric therapy I think about do they have a need for angiogenesis and new blood vessels? Do they have a lot of inflammation? Do they need stem cell release? They have an infection? The immune system support. Most people need this stuff, right. So the answer is that most people could use hyperbaric therapy, and the question is just when it's the best time for them to go.

Speaker 3:

So if you're somebody that has severe exercise-induced fatigue, you can't get out of bed in the morning, you are maybe 20% at your capacity in general it may not be a good time for you to start hyperbaric therapy. It may be a better idea to work on foundational biomarkers, comprehensive analysis, do some gut testing, neurotransmitters, hormones, and that's where the. So I have a nonprofit organization, as I mentioned, that I'm the chief operating officer of, and the reason why I signed on is because the founder, his name, is Dr Ted. He created this foundational approach to health, leaving out disease and just focusing on the health of the cells, the dietary measures around that. That was very much something that I aligned with when I understood my background as a son of a chiropractor, but also knowing that I was getting tired of being burned when people came into the chamber didn't do as well, or if they did well, they kind of had symptoms wane or improvements wane over time.

Speaker 3:

So for me it's the first step is always is this an acute issue or is this a chronic issue? If it's an acute issue and all those things are going on inflammation, stem cells et cetera then put them in the chamber and I use what I call my educationally throwing the shit at the wall strategy, just knowing that what people are likely going to need to support them, at least empirically, and then, if there is a chronic issue, then typically making sure that they're being well supported throughout their hyperbaric protocol, because protocols can be a couple of days, three to five days for an acute issue, but it can be as many as 30, 40, 60 sessions for somebody coming in for more of a chronic issue.

Speaker 1:

Phil, I have to ask you why. Why aren't we hearing more about this?

Speaker 2:

It seems like there's some significant power here, sort of limited indications for which hyperbarics are utilized, and even in those situations I would say they're underutilized. So probably the biggest application of hyperbarics in medicine is with wound healing.

Speaker 2:

So people that are having issues with wounds that are not healing. Um, hyperbaric oxygen, I think, has been shown to have great benefits. Uh, but again, it's it. It one is just doctors don't get taught this and don't hear about it. You know, uh, scott didn't learn this in medical school. Uh, certainly, and, and you know, I had to go do extra training, you know, when I was utilizing it for those purposes, and so it's a knowledge gap, both on the you know, practitioners as well as the patients just not hearing about it, practitioners as well as the patients just not hearing about it. And you know, and then I guess there are just those limitations that if it's not applied correctly it may not have benefit and does have very real harms associated with it as well. Hyperbarics that are not done correctly can be very problematic. So, but I don't know, I would ask Scott why he doesn't think it's more widely utilized, because I agree there are a lot of areas that it could potentially benefit, that it just hasn't been accepted into the mainstream.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I'm happy to chat. So, as you were alluding to, there's 14 indications that are covered by insurance here in the United States and most of those are inpatient types of acute trauma related indications. However, the four that are outpatient are five. One is diabetic foot ulcers, radiation injury from cancer treatment, so it's called delayed radiation injury. So if you have a radiation injury or a wound in a radiated field from cancer treatment, for example, and it's been there for over six months or it comes up after six months of after the radiation itself, then Ivan Baric therapy is fantastically effective at healing up these wounds.

Speaker 3:

You also have chronic bone infections. It's called osteomyelitis, sudden hearing loss, which is covered by the private care private insurances but not Medicare and then flaps and grafts. So these are plastic surgeons who do flaps and grafts, where they flap something or put some sort of area together, like if you've had a flap for, like, a breast reconstruction or something like that and that's not looking well, it looks like it's going to die, it's not going to work Then you can use hyperbaric therapy to re-auctionate it and help it to not die. In other countries in the world Japan, china, Russia for anybody who cares about the politics in those places, but they have 70 or 80 indications for hyperbaric therapy in either of those locations. And so there's different types of facilities around the United States, around the world, that are treating just the insurance related indications. And then there are others that are doing both insurance indications as well as off-label investigational indications, where there's not insurance approval but there's significant data to support their use. And then there are some facilities that just do the investigational indications.

Speaker 3:

And then there's different types of chambers. There's chambers that go to deeper pressures and there's chambers that go to milder pressures, and some of those milder pressure chambers are a different type of material, that instead of being a steel or acrylic glass, they are instead made of some sort of soft chamber type of material, a TPU type of material. I have one of those in my house, for example. So there's different ways of using it, different pressures, and there's about 50 or so indications outside of the 14 that have very good data to support their use. Is there a list? Yeah, there's plenty of lists, so the list that I would use is that, if people are interested, I have a very significant affiliation with a company that has numerous locations in New York and also one in Boston and Florida as well. It's called Hyperbaric Medical Solutions and hyperbaricmedicalsolutionscom is the website, and they have a great delineation between the insurance-related indications and the investigational.

Speaker 3:

And where I live, really Jack, is in the investigational side. I started getting involved in the biohacking, optimal performance world, elite athletes and things like that, using the chambers back in 2013, 2014. And so where I specialize is in the ways that you can use hyperbaric therapy in an integrative context, typically outside of the insurance world, and so these are. It could be any type of clinic you can imagine, it could be home units. And then I started my own company in 2018, 2019, because I was tired of people not knowing what they were doing in these chambers and having less than optimal experiences.

Speaker 2:

And.

Speaker 3:

Philip was mentioning that there are some side effects and potential warnings. When it comes to the chambers, that's absolutely true. They're very, very safe overall, but there are some things we do need to consider, and because it's sort of since COVID, uh, hyperbaric therapy became sort of the wild west, because you have chambers that are coming in from all over the world and people are getting for their homes, getting for clinics, and not very many people know how to use these things effectively, and so it's been a bit of a challenge for me, but it's also a great opportunity, as I created my company, which is called OneBase Health, and then trying to create education and ways to use these technologies in a very intentional, integrative way.

Speaker 1:

I'm sorry. What was the name of the company?

Speaker 3:

It's called OneBase Health.

Speaker 1:

OneBase Health.

Speaker 3:

Sorry, what was the name of the company? It's called One Base Health. One Base Health. Yep, yeah, one Base was. I first got into it because I wanted to make the best chamber on the market. That was my first thought because I was like, well, I can make a better chamber. But what I realized over the years is that the chambers are actually pretty good, but what really needs to happen with the chambers is that it needs to be more of an ecosystem for people to understand how to use these, what kind of protocols to do, safety and then also how you can integrate it with the other things that you're doing in your life or in a clinic. So if you have red lights, if you have saunas, if you have hole plunges, if you're a neurologic chiropractor any different thing there's so many ways to leverage the technology and that's what the company is trying to do and trying to make it safer by ways you can monitor your own progress with various types of real-time measurements inside the chamber.

Speaker 2:

Well, that's Now I was just going to say. You mentioned that you have a chamber at your house. I do, and to my knowledge you're a healthy guy. I don't know of a specific condition you're treating with it, but maybe talk about what some of the advantages you think come from doing this on a regular basis at home, for instance.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So the home chambers are typically milder in pressure, so medical grade chambers. If you go to a hospital or a wound care center, typically they'll go to about three atmospheres, which is the equivalent of 66 feet of seawater. But most people don't get treated at three ATA. That's what we would say. Three ATAs, three atmospheres, absolute, that's the full name.

Speaker 3:

But there's some interesting studies that were done at three ATA where if you put somebody to three atmospheres of pressure they no longer needed red blood cells to maintain their physiological function because they could circulate enough oxygen in the plasma or the liquid of our blood stream. So you can get a huge amount of oxygen in. So red blood cells typically carry oxygen right. So we need red blood cells to carry oxygen so that we can get oxygen to our tissues. But at three atmospheres or 66 feet of seawater you no longer need those because what hyperbaric therapy does is it drives oxygen into the plasma or the liquid of your bloodstream and you're going to do it to such a significant degree at 66 feet of seawater you don't even need red blood cells anymore. So, fun fact, wouldn't try it at home. But it is a reason why we use hyperbaric therapy in severe hemorrhage, especially in patients that are Jehovah's witness and don't want blood transfusions. Now in my home, my chamber goes to 1.3 atmospheres.

Speaker 3:

Okay, it's a very mild pressure. The milder pressures, the 1.3, the 1.5s of the world, which is equivalent to about 12 to 25 feet of seawater. These pressures are not as well studied but there are indications that they can be very helpful for neurocognitive optimization, brain inflammation and overall day-to-day recovery, and so there's more data coming in on these. But we know that even at a 1.3 pressure, without extra oxygen, you're increasing the number of circulation of stem cells by 2X, so by 200%. So we know that even just these milder pressures have significant impact on our physiology. So if somebody is coming in with more of a neurologic issue or if they're looking for more day-to-day optimization, then the milder units can be very, very helpful in those capacities.

Speaker 3:

So the way I use it to answer your question, phil is that I will use it periodically, regularly, five days a week for a period of time typically 10 to 20 sessions, and then but usually I'll use it, maybe on average, some average. Some weeks I don't use it at all, but sometimes I'll go in one or two times a week just to get a little bit of that oxygen. It will give you a little bit of energy, and the nice thing about being at these milder pressures is that it's not as much of a stress on the system. The deeper you go, more hyperbaric therapy is a stress on the system. That's not always a bad bad thing, especially if we need to recover from something. But over the long term it's the milder pressures are usually better, so you're not causing as much stress um, a couple of thoughts.

Speaker 1:

one is I seem to recall that I think it was michael jackson, or it may have been slept in a hyperbaric chamber. Um, I'd like, I'd like you to to speculate what that was all about, sure, and I would also like you to to talk more about, uh, performance enhancement. Not actually fixing, not getting people back up to a baseline, but helping people uh get better at at, I assuming some sort of athletic activity.

Speaker 3:

Sure. So yeah, michael Jackson. I used to put him on my slide decks and then every time there was a new documentary about him and molesting children, I would take him off my slide decks. Then after three to five years I'd put him back on and it's like one of those things. But he was the first person to bring any visibility to this. Do you remember the Pepsi commercial back in the 80s where he burned?

Speaker 1:

his head.

Speaker 3:

So he ended up getting a hyperbaric chamber to heal the burns the third degree burns that he had from that particular accident, and when he was done with the chamber he donated it to Cedars-Sinai in Los Angeles. And that's when he was filmed or photographed in the chamber. So he didn't use it, as far as I'm aware, for other kinds of crazy reasons. He used it just to heal those burns that he had on his head.

Speaker 3:

But sleeping in the chamber is not a good idea. In general. You don't want to be in the chamber for more than about two hours at the max. Typically the protocol is between 60 and 90 minutes, and so a lot of the people that you know, phil and I, that work in the ICU that have people on high flow oxygen for days and days and days. This is not a good idea, if at all possible, because it can cause actually injury to the lungs itself. So the exposure is very small, you know, typically 60 to 90 minutes at a time, and I usually do not recommend people sleep in the chamber because that high pressure oxygen for longer periods of time may cause too much stress in the system.

Speaker 1:

So how have you used it for performance enhancement?

Speaker 3:

Right. So in a lot of different ways. So what's interesting about performance is that it's on both sides right. It's on the performance side of things and the recovery side of things. So where I first started using hyperbaric therapy in this world was on the recovery side, so people that had exercise and they wanted to recover faster. I worked with a marathon runner about six or seven years ago and when she started using hyperbaric therapy with me after her training she realized that she needed to sleep two hours less per night.

Speaker 3:

Typically she would sleep for 10 hours 10 hours because she had a huge amount of recovery to do and she would sleep for eight hours and she was as recovered with all her metrics using the chambers.

Speaker 1:

And this was actually something you could measure you were.

Speaker 3:

Yeah Well, I mean, if you have things to measure, yeah, yeah, she was measuring, you know, with sleep scores and or rings and whoops and and garments and everything else like that, and she was measuring all this stuff and so she was able to see the benefit. Uh, using the chamber as a recovery tool.

Speaker 3:

And and that's because we're decreasing inflammation, we're helping with the cleanup of the stress related to exercise, we are getting more oxygen to these tissues. But on the performance side, there have been some interesting studies looking at a couple of things. The one that first thing that comes to mind is something called your vo2 max. Do you know what you so? Your vo2 max would you please?

Speaker 1:

I'm. I'm familiar with the phrase. There was a point in time where I could have probably explained it and I realized recently that I forgot.

Speaker 3:

I don't remember what it means yes, this has become a pretty hot topic recently. Uh, atia's book. I have a number of people reach out to me after the book saying they wanted to test their VO2 max because this is a very significant predictor of longevity. And so what we're looking at here is the ability of the heart to oxygenate the body on a minute-to-minute basis. So there's various types of tools to do this. They're not easy, but you have to wear a mask and run a treadmill and you actually can measure somebody's VO2 max, how well they can oxygenate the body on a minute-to-minute basis.

Speaker 3:

And so there are a couple small studies done in the hyperbaric literature where hyperbaric therapy increases your VO2 max, and it does that by revascularizing the heart muscle itself, so the heart muscle has more vascular capacity to maintain oxygen utilization for longer periods of time.

Speaker 3:

So that's not just one or two hyperbaric sessions, that's a full protocol of hyperbaric therapy when you're going in 30, 40 sessions to see that kind of benefit.

Speaker 3:

And so that's one of the major benefits we see. And then the other benefits are that and I've had a couple of people work with me do this you will find that after you do a hyperbaric session, oftentimes your oxygen carrying capacity, your ability to do more work, to run faster, longer, lift harder, will go up because that oxygen that was just in your system stays in your system for about 30 minutes to an hour after you get out of the chamber. Number one and number two there's an increase in oxygen utilization, with the ability to use that oxygen, any oxygen in the circulation, for the next 24 hours or so. So I have people that tell me all the time I loved hyperbaric therapy for all these reasons and I could run faster and run longer and I didn't get as tired and so I loved it for that reason too. So that's a short-term benefit, but I've had cyclists and other endurance athletes work with me to bring hyperbaric, these milder units, to the actual races themselves and use that as a way to performance enhance.

Speaker 1:

You know it's a legal doping kind of thing that's fascinating I'm imagining a hyperbaric tents in nfl locker rooms for use at halftime.

Speaker 1:

Oh my gosh it's not a bad idea, oh yeah yeah, very interesting, you know what years ago and this is this is only tangentially related, but I stumbled into this technology that that was trying to to get oxygen, a higher concentration of oxygen, into the body and and the through I maybe through the through the tissue, um, and it involved a glove and cold water and apparently the oakland raiders back when they were in oakland, actually used this for a while. Um, apparently it never went anywhere because I haven't heard anything about it since. But I think that must have been what it was. It was a sort of highly targeted hypobaric chamber.

Speaker 3:

It's possible, I mean one of the other things that Phil may have seen in the recent past is there was a number of different technologies looking to hyperoxygenate various types of ischemic tissue or low oxygen tissue, especially cardiac tissue, during vascular procedures, and I can't remember what it was, but it was basically like infusing a whole bunch of oxygen bubbles into circulation under hyperbaric pressure inside the vascular system itself during various procedures. So I know it's been attempted and I don't think it's become remotely commercialized, because I don't know how easy the technology is. But oftentimes healing is an oxygen problem and so if we can get more oxygen to the tissue, everything else is going to get better as a result of that.

Speaker 1:

Healing is an oxygen problem.

Speaker 3:

Most of the time, at least the initial side of things right. And then over the long-term it's not only an oxygen problem. It's more of the. When you have a tissue that's been deficient in oxygen for a period of time, you have all these other inflammatory kinds of things that start building up and causing issues for any kind of healing, and then you have deficiencies and toxicities related to energy production and antioxidant capacity not being awesome and then things kind of go downhill from there. But initially wounds are oxygen issues. Right, if you can get enough oxygen to the tissue, you're going to be able to heal it.

Speaker 3:

But the brain is a good example. The brain has all these governors on the wheel that prevent it from fully responding to a stress, because if it did, your knee can go to the size of a golf ball or a baseball, but your brain can't, because if you did, or if it did, you would die, because your brain can't tolerate that. So your brain has less of a capacity to heal itself. And that's where we've seen a lot of great work in the hyperbaric field, even though it's not covered by insurance in this world, in this country yet. Things like traumatic brain injury, for example, or stroke, or specifically those two things seeing significant benefit overall because we're able to get oxygen to these wounds that the body can't heal. This could be things like mild cognitive impairment as well, and other kinds of stress in the brain that can cause multiple different types of symptoms, anything from MS to autoimmune conditions, otherwise to dementia, et cetera but it's not the only answer it's not the only answer, that's the thing.

Speaker 3:

Like like that's the key. Like I don't want people to think like oh my god, like I need to get to hyperbaric therapy chamber now, like no, and that's. This is what. This is what got me shifted over the last five years or so to say like look, you have to optimize your foundational health first, if at all possible, unless it's an acute issue and they can use various compounds my favorite being methylene blue, for example that can really help optimize the system in a way that will make hyperbaric therapy more effective. And then also, this is kind of like the end result for me is that 80% of people probably don't need to go into hyperbaric chamber at all if they work on that foundational stuff first, right, and so that becomes like puts me out of a job, but I don't really care. I don't have a hyperbaric facility that I'm working at, but this is my goal is to help people right and to work with clinics, of course, but the overall goal is to create this foundational health in people and then everything else gets easier.

Speaker 2:

So you actually sort of read my mind there about other things, and methylene blue, I know, is one that you've worked with and talk about and is a very interesting one as well. We've touched a little bit on this program on on methylene blue and then, on the other side of the issue, nitric oxide and so-.

Speaker 3:

It's not the other side. It's not the other side, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Part of the balance there, I guess you could say, but I'd love to hear your perspective. Talk a little bit basics of methylene blue and then maybe how it might play into some health optimization.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so we'll get back to the nitric oxide point, but this is a very important one. Nitric oxide dilates blood vessels and that is also released. When there's an inflammatory stress, infection, trauma, stress, you have a different type of nitric oxide that gets released into circulation that causes pathological vasodilation, pain, inflammatory cascades very different from the nitric oxide that's in your blood vessels. That increases your blood vascular dilation and your blood vessel health. And so methylene blue affects the one, that's more the stress-related one, and not the one that's related to the blood vessels. So that's just a small little point. But when it comes down to it, what methylene blue does in the easiest way that I can explain is that increases energy and increases resilience. And so, Jack, when I was talking about problems in hyperbaric therapy, with energy production and with antioxidants and not having enough of those, methylene blue does both.

Speaker 3:

And that's what's so amazing about this particular compound, which has been around over a hundred years. It was the first drug that was registered with the FDA back in 1897, so a long time ago and its first indications were related to infection, especially very high doses of this particular compound. It was called the magic bullet at the time, because you could give people ridiculously high doses of methylene blue and it would kill pathogens but it would not harm the host. So that was the definition, as it were, of a magic bullet. And so there's a couple other drugs that were given the same moniker, but methylene blue was the original, and I've given a couple lectures with that title, as the original magic bullet being methylene blue.

Speaker 3:

And so at high doses it's a fantastic anti-infective and at lower doses it's a fantastic mitochondrial optimizer. So it helps with the mitochondria working better. So no matter where you might have a dysfunction in the mitochondria itself, methylene blue can compensate for that and help improve the function of the mitochondria. And if you have normal mitochondria, it can help improve the function of the mitochondria, and if you have normal mitochondria, it can help enhance the capacity for you to make energy. At the same time, it can also work as an antioxidant, and so if there's a lot of stress in the system, it can help be like an antioxidant, like your vitamin C or your NAC, your vitamin A, others, that it can help work just like those and help protect your cells, and then it can actually increase the amount of your own body's antioxidants as well. So long story short energy resilience and then it's dose dependent. At lower doses it's really energy and resilience. At higher doses it's an anti-infective and a significant rescue for severe mitochondrial stress.

Speaker 1:

What does mitochondrial stress look like for the average Joe?

Speaker 3:

The average person that has mitochondrial stress would be somebody that just had a significant injury, somebody that has severe inflammation, somebody that has severe infection, somebody that has severe trauma. So those are when your body's under, or ischemia, so like a low oxygen state. And so when your body's under severe stress like that, your mitochondria are going to be under severe stress as well, and so methylene blue can act just like oxygen in your mitochondria. So if you don't have enough oxygen around, nothing blue can actually act just like it, bind to the same site that oxygen would and allow your cells to still make energy even if there's not as much oxygen around. So we use it all the time you know off-label for people that are going to altitude, for example, or going on airplanes, because you can feel much better even if there's less oxygen around, for example. But in the clinical setting these acute traumas, inflammation, et cetera you can save tissue from dying or from severe dysfunction if methylene blue is added to the system.

Speaker 1:

Bill, I think I'm in over my head. Help me out.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so you know very interesting compound and you know, again, it's a compound that occasionally gets used in sort of the mainstream setting. In severe cases we use it for people who have very low blood pressure or in shock, especially from an infectious reason, what we call septic shock. Or actually there's a condition that can occur after heart surgery where you have what we call vasoplegic shock, where basically all your blood vessels are dilated and your blood pressure is low and we got to get them to kind of squeeze down again and methylene blue can be used in those situations. But it's interesting to hear, outside of that, what some of the potential applications might be. And I think people that are probably listeners of this show are thinking okay, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm doing many of the foundational things you know, uh, eating well, sleeping well, getting some activity.

Speaker 2:

Uh, you know, managing my stress. Uh, you know how might things like methylene blue, hyperoxy, hyperbaric oxygen, uh, you know some of these things help me, uh, help me improve even further? I guess would be the question that we need to answer for them.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah. I think the nice thing about methylene blue, honestly, is that I use it very early on in patients on their journeys, because most people have some element of energy production problem or they have oxidative stress and inflammation. And what we've seen over the last four years after starting the Transcriptions Company is that there is a fantastic potential for this particular compound to work very quickly to mitigate, reverse and improve a lot of people that have chronic symptoms your chronic inflammatory issues, your chronic autoimmune stuff, your brain fog, your fatigue. I can I'm not going to be going going through your conditions here specifically, because you know this is it's all kind of. You know can't talk about conditions specifically, but you can talk about the base physiology here and we've had a lot of great, great saves over the years with it, and so I find it to be foundational for many of my patients now, especially when they're on their healing journey and they have a long way to go.

Speaker 3:

If they have a long way to go, it can be a very difficult journey and Transcriptions was developed the company because we wanted to help people right now along that path to optimizing their health, which, as we all know, can take a long time, and methylene booze one of those compounds that can be added on very early in that process to lift them up a little bit and sometimes a huge amount, and at very, very low doses overall and see significant benefit. So I think if hyperbaric therapy is something that comes down the line later if it comes on at all because it's expensive, it takes time, effort. Even in my house I use it much less than you'd imagine because it's there and I look at it and go I should use that again. So, like anything else that you see all the time, but something like methylene blue is very easy to take on a regular basis for people in the beginning of their health journeys and I've just seen fantastic things while they're doing the work of changing their diet and optimizing their vitamins, minerals and nutrients and, you know, sealing up their gut and getting rid of toxic people in their life.

Speaker 3:

And you know we're working on trauma, whatever it might be, because all that stuff is foundational. Right, if you're in a toxic relationship like there's no amount of methylene blue, hyperbaric therapy is going to help you, right? Or no matter how much meat you have on a daily basis. Right, it doesn't matter, it's all going to be. Your life is not going to turn around until you start addressing some of that foundational stuff. So methylene blue is going to help, but if you have a lot of other things going on, those need to be supported at the same time too, of course.

Speaker 2:

Okay, go ahead, phil. Whatever it is that promise you know we can fix your problems Right. And how do you start to work through, ok, which one of these you know may actually be useful, you know, versus things that aren't going to be useful, with people of understanding what they should focus on first and what they should be incorporating and not incorporating into these recovery protocols.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's a really good question. I think it really just depends on the person and kind of where they are in their health journey. I always, always will start off with the foundational stuff. I get lots of people. I consult with people all over the world that consult with me because they want to learn about hyperbaric therapy and how it can help them heal from whatever you can imagine, and 80 to 90% of that conversation is usually not at all related to hyperbaric therapy at all. Sometimes to the frustration of the people that I'm talking to, because I'm like, look, we're going to get there, hyperbaric therapy. That's the easy part.

Speaker 3:

The hard part is figuring out how can we make your hyperbaric experience if that's what you choose to do as successful, as beneficial and as much of a long-term benefit as possible. So it's got to start off with the foundational stuff, unless it's an acute issue. If it's an acute issue, then we can get people in the chamber, we can support them and we can get them better faster. Or I can get the methylene blue if they can't get to a chamber, or multiple other things, and I can get them better in various ways. Acute inflammation, acute episodes of things, are much easier to heal from than chronic stuff, as we know.

Speaker 3:

So in the end it comes down to the same conversation that I'm sure you're having with most of your patients, phil. It's like well, what are the basic things that you're doing? What's your stress? What's your diet like? What's your exercise like? What's your sunlight exposure? What are you drinking every day? What are you not drinking every day? It's the basics always. And then from there, then you can kind of figure out where those levers are, that you can kind of start pulling, that you can start moving their needle on health. But it just takes time right and and finding what those are.

Speaker 1:

So that fits very well with what Phil's been preaching now for as long as I've known him. I want to try to get something into my thick skull here. I want to go back to methylene blue it is. It works beneficially in the same general way that the hyperbaric oxygen treatment works, but on a much smaller scale. Am I hearing that right? Well, I think the effect not the actual mechanism, but the effect is similar.

Speaker 3:

Well, I would say that you're. I would say I would kind of half agree, I think, in the sense that what hyperbaric therapy is doing is throwing a huge amount of more oxygen in circulation and helping you make more energy. Okay, methylene blue is also allowing you to make more energy. Okay, the difference is that methane blue also is protecting you more because it has the ability to create or be itself an antioxidant. Okay, hyperbaric therapy does not have that capacity. It hypothetically, under most circumstances, under normal circumstances, will force your body to make antioxidants to respond to the oxygen that just came in circulation. Okay, but and so that's why I can use methylene blue very early in people that are much sicker than I can in putting them in a chamber, because if I do that, they will not be able to tolerate the stress of that extra energy and that extra oxygen.

Speaker 1:

The methylene blue does not create the antioxidants. It actually functions as an antioxidant.

Speaker 3:

It can do both. It can do both Okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so you know. At the beginning of the conversation, scott, you kind of alluded to the fact that you, you know, you grew up a son of a chiropractor. You went to medical school, maybe not fully understanding, you know, what the traditional medical system entails, and you came out of that with the goal of trying to mesh these approaches and these ways of thinking. Really, I guess, how well do you think you've done that?

Speaker 3:

I remember you asked me that question before. I like that. I don't know how to grade myself on this. I think that I figured out a very robust way to help people, and that way is a combination of a lot of different potential inputs and ways of addressing a situation, but the framework is the same. The framework is always. It depends on the person, but in general, my framework and the ideal situation is that I have a foundational framework. It's called Health Optimization, medicine and Practice. It's a nonprofit organization as well, training practitioners on how to optimize health, and it's at homehopeorg.

Speaker 3:

I'm trained in that particular framework to optimize the health of my patients, looking at lifestyle, diet, of course, but multiple other factors, looking at foundational data, something called metabolomics, which we don't have to get into but using that data I can really work on the foundational health of my patients and clients. And then I have a multi-pronged way of understanding how I can support them, whether it be supplements or practices in their daily life, other practitioners that might help them, the hyperbaric experience itself, and then adding all that together to create a very simple protocol for people. That it sounds complex, but it's not that difficult. It's just something that sounds in a framework much more complex than it really is. So if somebody is coming in, for example, and they have a traumatic brain injury, which is something that I've seen a lot over the years, right Say, it's six months into their brain injury, they're still not feeling well. My goal with this particular person would be to measure their foundational biology, especially how well they make energy and how well they detox, making sure their gut is good and make sure they don't have a leaky gut, making sure we're working on their diet, and then at some point, maybe they need other practitioners to help them, maybe they need personal practices like yoga, meditation, mindfulness, daily walks, whatever it might be.

Speaker 3:

And then we think about the hyperbaric experience itself and then what that hyperbaric protocol would look like. So that's kind of like a window into what I would do in an ideal situation, but I don't know, I'd give myself like a B plus, a minus, I don't know. It's very difficult to make these kinds of things. I always think I could do better and I'm always iterating on these things, but I don't know. I and I'm always iterating on these things, but I, I don't know, I don't think I'm, you know, I've reached the pinnacle of my, of my practice. It's always evolving.

Speaker 1:

Well, are you operating outside of the uh?

Speaker 3:

the insurance industry.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, handcuffs.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I've been doing that for a long, long time, although I still work a very small part of the time as a hospitalist which Philip knows as well, which is internal medicine in the hospital. So that's a very conventional world. But outside of that, which is what I mostly do, yeah, everything's outside of insurance.

Speaker 1:

Everything is direct to consumer or direct to patient care, and how has that benefited your practice?

Speaker 3:

of the healing arts. Well, you have a lot more leeway. Of course, You're not stuck in any particular box of how you need to practice. I did that for long enough. I did primary care in an outpatient clinic for a couple of years and it was the bane of my existence really, and so I went back into the hospital because it was easier.

Speaker 1:

That's how I trained, and then I've been working out to get out of it for for many, many years, and I think that could probably resonate with that. Well, yeah, the uh we had, uh uh dr vivian low on last week and uh she dropped at the very end of the conversation, uh, a little factoid that where she currently practices in Boston, it's estimated by the end of the year they will have lost 25% of their medical professionals. Folks basically just checking out because of burnout, yep, and I suspect that for you operating outside, of the insurance model.

Speaker 3:

Burnout is not an issue. Well, like any good New Yorker, I work myself more than I probably should, but at the same time, it's a lot less possible because you're creating your own schedules and creating your own time. So a lot of people are leaving medical practice, conventional practice, because it's untenable. Right, it's sick care, it's not well care at all and it's very difficult to do anything outside the box. So there's a lot of stress related to that and, yeah, I agree, it's a huge issue. It was a big issue during COVID. And, yeah, I agree, it's a huge issue. It was a big issue during COVID. Of course, I think that trend has slowed down a little.

Speaker 3:

Answer a good fix here, other than to try to bring direct education to patients and clients and people all over the world to say that there are alternatives. There's a lot of the stuff that you can do without ever seeing Phil or me. You could do five things for your life and your diet and your lifestyle and your relationships, and I could promise you that 80% of what you got going on is going to get better, and it's about getting that extra 20% right. So maybe my I, maybe I should create a podcast that says, um, get to get them out of my hyperbaric chamber. You know, get off my hyperbaric chamber journey, or something right. It was the same kind of deal. I mean, I think it could be fantastically helpful, but I think that, you know, the majority of people could likely bypass the need for going into my chambers if they were doing most of these things.

Speaker 1:

Well, let's just summarize and it won't be the first time our listeners have heard it, but let's just summarize. What are those five things that you can do, dear listener, dear audience member, what are those five things that anyone can do without the guidance of a medical professional?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I had to give a talk on this about five years ago. I was given two hours and said create a 10 minute, 15 minute talk on on what you would do if you had no money and wanted to want to try to optimize your health without anything. And and, uh, I came up with five things, I think at the time. So, instead of three, the first one was very easy. And and uh, I came up with five things, I think, at the time. So, instead of three, the first one was very easy. It's just, uh, relationships. You know, we know that happier people, um, are people that have people in their, in their environments, around them. The more alone you are, the more alone you feel, the higher risk you have of dying. So, um, very straightforward, find a community, either online or, better yet, in person, is a big one. Number one it doesn't cost a whole lot of money, maybe just a little bit of time. Number two would be to move. Movement is really important. No matter what kind of movement you do, it's better than nothing. I am shaking my legs here to increase my metabolic rate as we talk. There are some studies that even just doing some calf raises when you're at your desk can increase your metabolic rate by like 30% or something ridiculous like that. So small little things. Or just go walk around the freaking block is what I'll tell people to do, too right?

Speaker 3:

The third one is it doesn't cost any money to not eat, and so fasting is an interesting thing for people, both from a psychological and a physical perspective. So try it. You don't have to fast all the time. I don't think fasting is for everybody for sure, but doing some periodic fasting can be very, very helpful from a recycling, renewal perspective. There's other ways to do it. I was more into fasting earlier in my career. I still think that fasting is important, but I think that caloric intake is also important making sure you get enough calories every day, especially with protein, but that's another story. That goes into diet, but not eating doesn't cost money, so give it a try.

Speaker 3:

The fourth thing is that would be related to sleep making sure that you're giving yourself a good sleep routine and that you're getting good sleep every night. It's not always easy for everybody, but most of us have enough security in our lives to get a place, or find a place, to be sleeping on a regular basis, which we are lucky to do. So a good sleep routine is very, very important. And then the fifth one that doesn't cost any money is to not do things, which I would extend to learning how to meditate is a big one. If you have ways to learn that, as ramdas would say, that you know learning to be nobody. It's a good way to realize that nothing that you actually care about actually matters most of the time. As I tell my kids, don't believe what you think.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I want to. I want to have a different conversation. Uh, that's going to go deep into the metaphysics here, cause that sounds really cool, but all right, you heard it here, folks, five things you can do to get healthier without spending a dime. In fact, things you can can not do to. To get healthier not eat? Yeah, that's good, uh.

Speaker 3:

I think that's a great way to wrap this to get healthier, not eat.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's good. I think that's a great way to wrap this up. This has been a very interesting discussion. People want to learn more. People want to potentially work with you. Tell them how to find you.

Speaker 3:

Sure. So my hyperbaric practice you can find me at drscottschurcom D-R-S-C-O-T-T-S-H-E-R-R. The other way to get me is integrativehbotcom. That's my hyperbaric consulting work. And then I also have my foundational health optimization practice. That's at another website called home-sfco. If that's something, that's more, it's more of my foundational practice. The company that makes the products is called troscriptions t-r-o-scriptions, like prescriptions with the t-r-o in front of it, and that has the methylene blue products that we were talking about. They also have a non-profit organization that's training practitioners. That's health optimization medicine and practice.

Speaker 1:

that's homehopeorg excellent hopefully we're in a lot of places but we'll get that.

Speaker 2:

You can just find me on Instagram too, at Dr Scott Sure and I.

Speaker 3:

I can send you wherever you'd like to go. That's also fine too.

Speaker 1:

Okay, go to Instagram there, you go. Perfect. All right, we will make sure all that contact, contact information at least as much of it as I can extract from the transcription appears in the show notes. Dr Scott Scher, thanks for being with us today.

Speaker 3:

Thanks for having me guys. It's been fun. Sorry, I talk fast.

Speaker 1:

We listen pretty fast, so it's okay, Sweet. All right For Dr Philip Ovedia. This has been the Stay Off my Operating Table podcast. Thanks for joining us. We look forward to talking to you again soon and we'll see you next time.

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Dr. Philip Ovadia

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Jack Heald

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