Stay Off My Operating Table

Judy Cho: Is the Carnivore Diet the Key to Overcoming Eating Disorders? #156

• Dr. Philip Ovadia • Episode 156

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What happens when a 12-year commitment to a plant-based diet leaves you battling major depression and an eating disorder? Join us as Judy Cho, a board-certified holistic nutritionist, shares her eye-opening journey from the progressive dietary culture of UC Berkeley to discovering the healing power of animal fats and proteins. Judy's story is a powerful testament to the transformative effects of proper nutrition on mental and physical health, especially for those struggling with nutrient deficiencies.

Throughout this episode, Judy opens up about her struggles with postpartum depression and the profound realization that prioritizing her own health was essential to being a better mother. Hear how her transition from a plant-based keto diet to a carnivore diet marked a significant turning point, helping alleviate her physical cravings and mental turmoil. Judy's journey not only brought her personal healing but also ignited a passion for nutritional therapy, leading her to share invaluable insights through her books and podcast.

Explore the complexities of navigating both plant-based and carnivore communities, the hidden dangers of seed oils, and the broader implications of dietary choices on public health and the environment. From her early fascination with nutrition to her successful career shift from management consultant to full-time nutritional therapist, Judy offers a wealth of knowledge and inspiration. Tune in to discover the power of a carnivore diet and the importance of bio-individuality in achieving optimal health.

About Judy Cho: Judy Cho is a board-certified holistic nutritionist and author. After struggling with eating disorders and depression while on a plant-based diet for 12 years, she discovered the healing power of the carnivore diet. Now, Judy helps others optimize their health through her practice, books, and online resources, focusing on the benefits of a

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Written & Performed by Logan Gritton & Colin Gailey
(c) 2016 Mercury Retro Recordings

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Speaker 1:

He was a morbidly obese surgeon destined for an operating table and an early death. Now he's a rebel MD who is fabulously fit and fighting to make America healthy again. This is Stay Off my Operating Table with Dr Philip Ovedia.

Speaker 2:

Welcome back folks. It's the Stay Off my Operating Table podcast with Dr Philip Ovadia. We are joined today by Judy Cho, about whom I know very little and I'm hoping to find out more. Phil, tell us about our guest, why she's here, and then we'll get into the conversation.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely, and it's certainly a shame if you know very little about Judy. I certainly have been following her and we've had a number of conversations over the years. Now Judy is kind of a veteran in the carnivore space, has written now two great books on carnivore that we're certainly going to talk about. Her newer one came out recently. It's the Complete Beginner's Guide to the Carnivore Diet, and then I think you can see behind her other book, the Carnivore Cure. I'm really excited to have this conversation with Judy. I've been honored to appear on her podcast, I think twice now, and it's great to be able to turn the tables. So, judy, since many people might be like Jack and aren't familiar with you, why don't you give a little bit of your background and your story?

Speaker 4:

Sure, thank you both for having me today. So my name is Judy Cho. I am a board-certified holistic nutritionist, but before that I was just in management consulting, graduated from UC Berkeley, but I was plant-based for about 12 years and I just started getting sick.

Speaker 2:

Plant-based means.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, so plant-based oh I love this, so plant-based I would. I never had meat for 12 years, but there was an occasional egg white or fish, occasionally maybe tuna. It was super lean meats or, I'm sorry, super low fat, and there was no meat at all though. So I never had chicken, pork, beef, et cetera for over 12 years, and so that's why I call it plant-based, but I guess technically it'd be pescatarian. But I didn't have fish every day, and it was big bowl salads. I did.

Speaker 4:

Berkeley is known for their big bowl salads, and that's when I converted and I started getting really sick. So at night I started binging. I didn't even understand what that was I never even heard of that terminology back then and so I started developing an eating disorder where I couldn't control myself at night. I think it was the lack of fats and also the lack of nutrition and animal proteins, and so I started binging at night, and a friend told me that I think you're suffering from an eating disorder. Why don't you go see a therapist? And I did, and it didn't really help because I never changed the diet. I thought everyone told me the plant-based diet is super, perfectly healthy, and so I continued to eat that way for 12 years.

Speaker 2:

Let me ask you a question. Yes, you graduated from Berkeley.

Speaker 4:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Which is kind of famous for being science-y, tech-y nerdy. What was your degree in?

Speaker 4:

So I was actually pre-med for about two years and then I said this is not for me. I think it was organic chemistry that broke me, because it was really hard for me to imagine the molecules right, Even though I really like chem now and all the biochem for the body. And so then I switched and I double majored in psychology as well as communications, and then I had a minor in business administration.

Speaker 2:

So you've smart girl with a college degree and you fall for the plant-based dogma. Okay, I just, I'm just wanting to put this in context. So here's a If you had graduated from Bug Tussle Community College, it would have been one thing. But this is Berkeley. Okay, carry on.

Speaker 4:

So think about the context of Berkeley. They are very progressive and they believe that plant-based is the way to eat. So it is part of the culture there. And so I read a book. I can't remember the doctor's name, but he created the master cleanse, where people were eating that, the maple syrup. You're going to clean out your colon by eating this way and doing this detox.

Speaker 4:

All the celebrities were on it, and so I said this must be the right way and animal food must be putrefying in my system, which obviously I know now is totally incorrect. And so I I tried that detox and then I it just kind of stuck for 12 years and never once whether it was a therapist, a psychiatrist, my psychologist, nutritionist, et cetera no one has ever told me that my diet was probably what was making me sick, and instead I was just born a little broken. So I ended up suffering from major depression, major postpartum depression. So everyone said she needs to go and work on her eating disorder, go into an eating disorder facility, full time care, and she needs to figure out how to use intuitive eating or mindful eating to support her bad behaviors. But never once was someone saying you need to eat more fat, you need to eat more proteins, because that's the building blocks of your body, etc. Instead, they were saying you just need to figure out how to moderate the foods that you're eating so that you can heal from your eating disorder.

Speaker 3:

Now, you know you're probably, I think, the third or fourth guest that we've had on here that's kind of you know went through this similar journey. Interestingly, all of the ones that we've had on and I would say a preponderance of the people that I see on, you know, in the community, on social media, talking about this, are young women who you know get attracted to plant-based vegan diets and for a lot of them it's not really a health reason. And before you started plant-based, you know, were you having any medical issues that you were trying to solve, or was it more just, like you said, you kind of, you know that was the thinking, that was the community around you and it sounds like a good idea. And certainly, you know, the proponents of plant-based make it sound like a great idea and you're saving the environment and you're helping the animals and you're improving your health all at the same time. So I would just it would be great to understand a little bit about your thinking of, as you're getting into this, what you were, why you were doing it.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, yeah, so I am always, and we'll always, be super candid and blunt. So I grew up in Los Angeles. I grew up with around celebrities I had a couple celebrities go to my school, so it was always about the aesthetic, and so truly the only reason I tried a plant-based diet was one. Obviously there was a lot of people that believed in the plant-based diet and it's the most healthiest way you can eat. And then, secondly, I had a few extra pounds on me and so it seemed maybe this is something I can try and maybe I can lose weight. So that's why I started with that master cleanse. It wasn't because I was trying to clean my gut or something was specifically wrong. Of course, I suffered with a little bit of eczema and things that I didn't know again attributed to food or your diet. So I did it to lose weight, and I did lose weight after, but it really required my eating disorder to come in and bulimia to come in, so that I really got thin, because you can actually be overweight being plant based too. But so it was really that. And then, ironically, as I got into the-based world, then you start getting fed the information. So then I joined PETA and I started advocating for the animals and watched the earthlings and all the movies that are so against eating animal-based foods.

Speaker 4:

With my first pregnancy I still had my eating disorder. I was still in consulting, everything was going well outwardly, and six months into nursing my son I had to get on antibiotics for mastitis. So I developed from breastfeeding and it was a collection of either not eating sufficiently, suffering from an eating disorder, getting on the antibiotics, high stress, lack of sleep, but something in that mix. I went one day, went to sleep and then the next morning I had no memory or recollection of anything that happened. The doctors think I had a psychotic break, but they weren't sure. And it was in that whole process of me going to the eating disorder facility and then not figuring out what fully was wrong and then starting to research nutrition because I had a second child on the way and not wanting for that to happen again. It just became a thing of. I was taken away from my first child so that I can go into this facility. So I was no longer taking care of my child.

Speaker 4:

Biggest fear of not being a successful mom came true in my life. So I was a failed mom. My child was with my mother while I was in this outpatient care for intensive care of eating disorders, and then through that I realized I could save an animal, but I'm also foregoing my own health and then not being able to be a mom for my child, which then, if I'm healthy, then I can take care of my child and then we can take care of all the animals, or the environment or the planet or whatever we want to. And that's when I realized, through my whole journey, that if I'm not healthy, I will not be able to be a good citizen of this world for anyone that's around my life. And so that's when I realized a lot of what I believed was a lot of actual dogma.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's an amazing realization that really a lot of people struggle with. And you know, again, I mean I've said many times on this show, I say in my book you know a vegan vegetarian, you know plant-based approach is better than our standard American diet or can be better in certain ways. Sometimes it's not, but it can be better. But you know we can't get around the fact that we as humans were evolved to eat animal protein and it really is the most nutrient-dense food source we have available to us. And in a lot of situations, you know that people following these plans are sacrificing their own health in the name of you know these other things. And, like you said, it's really not a trade-off. That makes sense because human health is going to impair all those other things that you mentioned. So I think it may be. You know, hopefully it was your Berkeley education You're being smart to start with that allowed you to come to that realization, but it took a pretty painful process. So then talk about your transition then out of a plant-based lifestyle.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. So I think, ultimately, when I had graduated from the eating disorder facility and I was using the mindful eating, intuitive eating which is basically you check in with yourself like how hungry am I, how do I feel while I'm eating this, do I feel anxious eating this amount of food or this type of food? And I would use all those methods, but eventually I would crash and burn and I would start binging and purging and I would meet with my psychiatrist. So you get a team outside of these programs where you'll meet with a dietician, a psychiatrist to give you your meds and then a therapist to talk about whatever issues are going on in your life. And so that triad helped. I don't know about the medication part, but as I would talk with them, it's just eventually nothing would work and it was just. It just got to a point where I had my child. I knew I failed as a mom.

Speaker 4:

Yet I'm still using the behaviors that I was using that got me away from being a good mom. And out of desperation, I mean, I was in the bathroom and I remember my friend told me why don't you try this crazy diet called carnivore? And I'm like that is so insane that people would just eat meat. What about fiber? What about all the antioxidants and all the things that people say against carnivore? And it is in pure desperation that when I was in the bathroom and just I don't, I can't do this anymore, I don't want to do this anymore, I felt shame, guilt. What kind of mom am I still still pursuing the addictive behaviors? And it was in that moment that I said I'm just going to try it, because I see these healing stories online. And what do I have to lose If I can be a better mom, a better wife, somebody that can be more grounded? I'm willing to try it. And it was in that trying that in a couple weeks my body was no longer screaming for nutrition. So the mind still wanted to cope with food, like I had a stressful day, maybe I didn't speak of my own needs, so then I want the food, but the body's desire like I need to go and binge right this moment, that physical sensation went away. And that was when I realized there's something to this. I don't understand, but I'm going to understand.

Speaker 4:

So, whether it was my Berkeley brain that I needed to know more, I just started digging into books, the science, keto, carnivore, or there wasn't no carnivore books back then, but a lot of the you know, the nutrition on meat and the bioavailability of nutrition and nutrients and understanding that actually our gut assimilates animal proteins way more than fiber or from plant-based foods, that stuff started to get me really upset. And because I was sick, I was on disability and because of what I learned in my consulting days, out of true boredom, I thought there's all these keto graphics, the keto food pyramid, but there's none for carnivore, and so on my downtime, away from being my mom, I just started creating graphics online and that's sort of how, in that moment of disability, I always thought I'd go back to consulting. I just had a, you know, like a come to Jesus moment with my husband and I said my passion is in nutrition.

Speaker 4:

I got my life back and I'd love for people not to have to suffer from an eating disorder, major depression, for over a decade, lose their life thinking that they need to be on these medications or that they're just broken, when what I didn't tell you guys is on a carnivore diet. I'm on zero meds. I don't have depression, I don't. I've been in remission with my eating disorder for over five years and I never thought this could be a reality for my life, and so, now that I'm mad, it's like it turned into a passion of I want to share this information with people and in a way that's really understandable, and pictures can describe things in a like in less than a thousand words, right. I started sharing what I learned in creating presentations for in my consulting days, to then share bite-sized nutrition pieces to one dispel a lot of the misinformation we know about nutrition and then to share the true benefits of a carnivore diet or a you know, a heavily meat focused diet.

Speaker 2:

That's different. I get a kick out of that as somebody who's a refugee from corporate America and do plenty of those things myself. I love it that the stuff you learned to do there has actually turned out to be useful to humanity, rather than just generating three ring binders full of useless information. Wow, okay, so we're on Zoom. Right now. I really want to say please share one of your graphics, but I'm sure there's ways we can get to those.

Speaker 4:

I can send you a few, or I can send you a few links so that we can put it in the show notes or something like that.

Speaker 2:

Let's do that. That would be seriously fun.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and you know I'll just also comment the books are both kind of beautiful, very well graphically done.

Speaker 3:

Judy's website certainly great resources for anyone interested in carnivore, and I think you know it's definitely a needed resource to make this accessible because you know, and again not necessarily hitting us, you know, in my mind it's not really carnivore versus vegan, but the reality is that there's a lot of this type of graphical information, easily accessible information, quite frankly, the Instagram influencers that we see behind the plant-based diet, and I think we need more of that if we're going to get that sort of recognition for a carnivore diet or, you know, meat-based approach let's call it in the same way that the plant-based approach has kind of taken hold. Yeah, I want to, if you don't mind, just dig in a little bit more. You know, going back to your kind of your plant-based days and the eating disorder and the binge, what kind of foods would you binge on? I mean, so people might be sitting there thinking was she kind of binging on broccoli and cauliflower, or would it be that you would go for the junk food, the Oreos, which are technically a plant-based food?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I would binge off of a fatty plant-based food. So I think so the day-to-day I would eat like the big bowl salads, but I would limit the, I'm sorry, okay.

Speaker 4:

So I would typically eat the big bowl salads with limited fat, so maybe I would use, like the fat free dressing. So I was getting very limited fat. So I don't think that's just a plant based versus animal based. I think that's also a fault of mine, where I wasn't adding fat. So by the end of the night maybe I didn't eat more than 1000 calories, maybe it was less than that.

Speaker 4:

And then I was also working out and I was going to school full time, and by the night I had this really crazy urge and sensation that I'm so hungry, I need to go eat something, and it's something that you cannot explain unless you actually go through it. But you're physically, your body. I really believe it's the hormones telling you I need this girl to go eat something or she can die. And so I will have her crave the thing that will make her go. And so the thing that I would crave is like, maybe pasta, so really unhealthy fettuccine Alfredo without any of the meat, but there's creamy fat in it, or it would be like cookies, so there's fat there, and then I would. And then the fat?

Speaker 2:

what kind of fat?

Speaker 4:

seed oils, right, vegetable was like really unhealthy fats, but as long as there was no animal-based foods, I was game, and so I would just go to the grocery store and my first thought is okay, you know what, I'm just going to have one cookie, I'll just have one cookie and I'll be good. And then that one cookie, then something would trigger me and I needed to eat all of the cookies.

Speaker 4:

And sometimes out of true embarrassment, I would go from like fast food restaurant to different grocery stores, to different stores, because I would be so embarrassed of the amount of food I'm buying. And there was, I remember there was a clerk at one of the gas stations that would say, wow, you're having a party. And I remember feeling such shame because it was only for me. And I would say, yeah, I know I have a bunch of friends coming over, but it was truly so. I could just binge.

Speaker 4:

And then initially you would start feeling this high, but after a few bites you would start feeling really gross and then my thought is, my mind would start racing, I would have anxiety and then I would purge whether it was, you know, letting it come back out or you know, or using laxatives over exercising. So there were a lot of 24-hour gyms before COVID and I would be at the gym at 2 in the morning and I'd work out for two hours in the middle of the night and I would do these crazy things while working full-time or when I was in school full-time. And it was the facade. I would live to say that I was plant-based and look how healthy I am now, but in reality I was living this double life darkness and anything that was not animal-based was on the table, so it could have been the most ultra processed foods, but that was what would satiate my system, and so I do think a fat had a big component of what I was craving big component of what I was craving.

Speaker 2:

I'm struck by the fact that you're describing experiencing all kinds of difficult experiences that are typically diagnosed as a psychological issue.

Speaker 4:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

A and and untreatable genetic problem, some sort of behavioral bad habit, um, and in fact, if I'm understanding bad thinking, you need to fix your attitude. You need to, and in fact, what you're actually dealing with, if I understand it correctly, is you just simply weren't getting the nutrition you needed. Yeah, I don't want to oversimplify, but it sounds like when you started eating the food that your body was actually needing, all that stuff kind of melted away.

Speaker 4:

Yes. So in our eating disorder facility I remember one of the psychiatrists in there took a whole bio of my life from the moment I was born. Tell me about big moments in your life. What did you feel, what did you go through, did you have any trauma? And in all of that I distinctly remember his end summary or the summation of my life was yeah, it sounds like you had minor depression your whole life.

Speaker 4:

And you know, if you have a broken arm and you need to take Tylenol every day because it's kind of broken and you don't want to feel that pain, that's what antidepressants do. If you're sort of a little broken and you were kind of born broken, then what is so wrong with you taking antidepressants for the rest of your life? Like your brain just sort of needs that. And the logic side of me said thought that makes sense. I guess I was. I mean, the psychiatrist tells me that I was completely broken and I just always had a little bit of depression my whole life and so therefore I need antidepressants.

Speaker 4:

So I followed suit. I took the antidepressants but only to get to the highest dose, switch different antidepressants and eventually they're like you know what? This isn't fully working because you're still using behaviors, you're still having suicidal thoughts and depressive moments. So now let's add these other drugs, these antipsychotics, that will support. I know they're really for bipolar and schizophrenics, but you know we've seen in some cases that it helps with depression, and for me, again, it was. I want to be a better mom. So if I, if this will fix me, then I'm happy to do it. Because again, remember, I was just told that I was kind of broken being born and so I took those, and then it started making me kind of gain weight and not, and my personality became super muted. So then I started asking the psychiatrist this isn't working for me, and so all they did was okay, let's try a different drug.

Speaker 4:

And it was constantly like that and so, out of desperation, I was the one that started reading about nutrition. And when I started eating meat yes, when I was not able to balance my needs or my self care or my boundaries the desire to want to escape with food still was there, and I highly recommend people to work through that. But the physical need of I need to go out, I don't care what people say, I don't care if it's on my child or whatever, I need to go get food. That went away. And that's when I realized there's something to food that I don't understand, but it's actually helping me get better. And so when my body was no longer craving the food and I was starting to get better and the desire to binge wasn't there as much as other than psychologically I kind of want to binge because I'm kind of used to it, and I started working on that with therapy and self-care and even my faith. Then it just became easier, because now I don't have two parts that are I'm battling my eating disorder. It's not just my body or it's not just my mental health, it's now. My body is starting to get fueled, my gut is starting to have less inflammation, I'm finally starting to absorb most of my nutrients, most of your neurotransmitters, or what helps your mood balance, is in your gut. 70 to 80% or more than that of your serotonin is produced in your gut and, yes, it doesn't go to your brain, but they absolutely talk to each other. And if the drugs that I'm taking are supposed to help serotonin stay in my brain, but if I'm inflamed because the plant-based foods are causing inflammation and causing my gut to be more leaky, then, as I'm healing with just me for something the magical side whether it's that serotonin now is communicating better with the side on the brain I no longer suffer from depression at all.

Speaker 4:

Sure, I have low days. Sure, I have mood where I can be cranky, but I used to be so unstable that my boss would tell me I wish there was a sign on your head like today you could joke around with Judy, and to this day, do not mess with Judy, because the same jokes can land on one day, but on another day I would want to basically bite the person's head off, but I do not have any of that. It doesn't matter if I slept underslept I mean, I have young children if I'm working a lot, but my mood is way more stable. I don't suffer from oh, I want to binge and then purge, but I've been meat-based for over seven years and it took a while to get here. But now I know for sure that what I was going through was so much my diet and knowing that I was told I was broken was absolutely false. And knowing that and knowing the moments where, thank God, I had a strong support system because if I didn't, there might have been a day that I was like you know what I don't want to live and I'm actually going to put action towards it, but I didn't because I had family and for that burden that I didn't want to put on them.

Speaker 4:

But I just imagine that there are people that go through the same thing I go through, take all the different drugs and then they're stuck and they're unhappy and they don't even think once that maybe these drugs are actually making me feel worse and maybe if I just try to change my diet slowly, I'll get a little bit more energy and then I'll be able to do the things that I'm supposed to do, have purpose and feel better and then do the therapy and all the other things that I need to do to stop certain habits and then focus on why maybe I'm not doing self-care, but we never talk about that in our standard care.

Speaker 4:

And I've been through the ringer with the eating disorder facilities, therapists, dietitians, psychiatrists. I've done it all because I wanted to be the good mom and all it did was fail me. And in the moments when you see your child in the baby monitor crying in the middle of the night, but you're going through a binge and purge and in my mind I'm like I could go get my son, or, but then I'm going to gain some of the weight that I ate or I could purge it out and then I'll go. And when you decide that, sorry, my binge purge is more important right this second than my son and I'm seeing him crying while I finish my purge, you realize how rotten of a place you're in. And knowing that you don't have to be there because a lot of it is your diet, you will absolutely become passionate about it, because I've never gone through that again.

Speaker 2:

I can imagine. What was the transition like physically going from. Obviously emotionally there was a tremendous relief, but was the? Did your body have to kind of adapt?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, no, I don't think that. Interestingly, I never struggled with the physical side. Now, the very first time I had meat, I ended up throwing up and I think it was more psychosomatic than everything, because the second meal was fine. I was keto, but plant-based for about a year before I went carnivore because I believed in keto. So I thought, okay, maybe the fat is the issue. So then I just ate a plant-based keto diet and I think there was a keto, plant-based book out there and I read that one. But then I would struggle again and I would end up eating keto treats and then binging and then eating standard American food and then. So then I knew that wasn't the full answer, and that's when I went carnivore.

Speaker 4:

What I noticed, even going from keto, was when I was less dependent on carbs, because when you're plant based, it's inevitable you're going to be highly dependent on carbohydrates. My energy was a little bit more stable. It's just that I still wasn't getting enough nutrition in terms of amino acids and all the nutrients in meat. That it wasn't until I ate meats that I feel like my body was a lot more stable. I didn't have the hangry mood, so my mood was more stable. I would sleep more through the night. So after pregnancy I noticed I would wake up two times a night.

Speaker 4:

I suspect I was pre-diabetic and now all my markers are normal. I'm in my early forties and I don't take any medications. My sleep is regular, I don't wake up through the night and my menses is normal. So I don't take any medications. My sleep is regular, I don't wake up through the night and my menses is normal. So I don't have any of the things that you know early 40 women are starting to get. I have no hypothyroid, I don't have any of that stuff. But I think when I first, when I did notice certain things, so the little eczema I did have, so when I would purge a lot, I would my body would get really dehydrated and I would sometimes scratch my skin so much at night that I would start bleeding. And I don't have skin issues. Yeah, I'm a super, my skin is hydrated, my hair is fine, you know, and yeah.

Speaker 3:

So there there has been physical changes, but it was more the mental side for me specifically, and you know that's kind of an interesting, you know we'll call it N equals one experiment that you did there, because it wasn't, you know, some people would say, okay, it was just a low fat issue and you know, maybe fat soluble vitamins were the problem and you weren't getting enough of those. But even when you went keto, you know plant-based, and so now you were getting plenty of fat but you weren't getting animal fat and obviously you weren't getting animal protein and obviously you weren't getting animal protein. You know, you still were having some of these issues and it's really when you it sounds like it's only when you reintroduce animal protein and animal fats that things really got better.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, no, that's absolutely true. So that is, what is really cool with my story is because I had that N equals one. So initially I thought maybe it was just the fat. So then I went ketogenic, plant-based, and that didn't fix it, because I added all the avocados, all the olive oils and that didn't really solve it. And it wasn't until I went animal based.

Speaker 4:

Now, my first year of carnivore, I still struggled.

Speaker 4:

Most days was good, but there were some days where I still wanted to binge and I don't think but that part I think it wasn't the bodily hunger, it was my.

Speaker 4:

It was the mental side, the addictive side of turning to food when things or something happened in my life, the emotional side and as I worked through that, because I no longer had food as an excuse anymore. So I had to sometimes white knuckle through emotions, hard emotions that I used to just I'm mad at my boss, I'm just going to binge, I'm so mad and I would escape that way and I no longer had that anymore. You can only eat a certain amount of steak after you're like I'm done, and so you have to finally face the music of what is really bothering you, and that was when I started working on. What is it so? Is it that I'm not expressing my needs to my husband? Is it that I'm not vocalizing my needs to my old boss? Those are the things that then you are forced to do when you no longer have an escape, such as an addictive thing, such as food, and so that was a huge shift for me as well.

Speaker 2:

All right. So I've got to ask now because I never even thought of it until you mentioned it. But plant-based keto.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, it's, a. Thing.

Speaker 2:

And with my limited understanding of biochemistry, I think what that means is you get all your fats from non-animal sources, which, as far as I understand it, there aren't a lot of options.

Speaker 4:

As far as I understand it, there aren't a lot of options. So I would consume MCT oil, coconut oils there are, I mean obviously, and I would try not to eat any of the seed oils. So at least I knew that much. But I would do the avocado, avocado, the fruit, and then I would have coconut oil, olive oil, and those would be my main ones. So I would have a big bowl salad and then I would use a lot of those oils and then I would either get tofu or tempeh and then slowly there was more plant-based junk coming out. So I would get those as well, like the bokeh burgers and things like that. Yeah, that's what I lived off of.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and then you know you can get some fat from nuts, you know, and nut butters are certainly big, you know, big component of lots of people that are doing that sort of keto, plant-based approach. But it's pretty challenging but it can be done. And you know, like I said, I would probably put that ahead of a standard American diet, especially if you're doing a clean keto. You know you're not using a lot of vegetable and seed oils. It, you know it probably has some advantages there but very difficult to maintain. Ok, so here you are now, seven years carn, a little bit about how, then, that led you into, you know, writing the books and your community and some of the, you know, helping to spread this message. And where, along the way, did you get the kind of formal nutritional education and maybe talk a little bit about that process? Because, again, a lot of our nutritional education you know, professional nutritional education is incongruent with what you experienced.

Speaker 4:

We'll say so while I was in disability and I was, I read one keto book I think it was Keto Clarity and then it just shocked me at the lack of information or understanding I had about cholesterol. And I was looking for a nutritional therapy school because I was so fascinated and I felt like I needed the fundamentals to just understand. I mean, I took some pre-med courses the biology, the chemistry but they don't talk about nutrition, and so I wanted to go to a nutrition specific school, and so I found nutritional therapy association. There was a couple of nutritional therapists that I knew online and they had finished or graduated from there. So I went there while I was still on disability, still creating some of those graphics, and I opened an Instagram account that was sharing some of those graphics and that sort of took off. I think Dr Sean Baker shared it and that may have been what allowed it to be shared more easily.

Speaker 4:

And so in therapy school then I started learning more about nutrition, about Weston, a price, how animal fats are so good for you, and proteins and the building blocks of amino acids versus carbohydrates. And they're not a zero carb school. They absolutely support a ketogenic diet, but they're all about bio individuality, which I fully believe in. We I now have a practice where we've seen probably over 2000 carnivore clients, and to say one person has to eat only beef and another person has to, or that everyone has to go super strict, it doesn't work. You can have the best diet, but if the person cannot follow it it won't stick and it's really about the individualized care. So that's a lot of what I learned at the school and then after I think right after graduating I decided that I'm going to write a book, and only because on social media I kept getting asked the same questions what about vitamin C? What about fiber? What about this? What about electrolytes? What about loose stools? And so I thought if I just write a book and I answer these questions, I'll never have to answer them again. I mean, that was such simple thinking, but I still have to answer those questions. But that's why I decided to write the book.

Speaker 4:

And then I painstakingly every night, because I was so passionate, I would write a chapter. I would then create all the graphics in the book. I created them and I would just spend hours every night working on it, dedicated, and then we released it, we self-published it and I was honestly asked to break up that book into two different books from a publisher, but we decided to just keep it in house for so that we can write it the way that we wanted. But after that then I went to go sit for the board certification and so I think it requires like 500 to 1000 working hours, some recommendations, and then you have to sit for a board test for about three to four hours and I will say there's a lot of plant based, friendly questions in there that you have to answer in the way that you know. You would probably never answer as a meat based person, so I would close my eyes and just answer the question that they wanted the correct answer. But it was definitely a moral dilemma that I felt taking the test. But that's how I got the board certification. So I never went back to consulting. I was headed to be a director, which is like the second to highest tier in consulting, and I was super successful as a management consultant.

Speaker 4:

But I realized my passion is in nutrition and I again, I don't want people to go through what I went through and I think if people can just understand that we've been lied to about nutrition and that if we were to just understand the mechanistics of cholesterol. I mean, if your body really thought cholesterol was so bad, why would it use its own energy to create 70% of the cholesterol that's in our body? You know, like that's just the basic. I really like to think in logic in that way. And it's just, if it was that bad, why would God have made it our bodies to create such a heinous, you know enzyme in our body? But it's because actually we need cholesterol, we needed to produce our sex hormones and we needed to manage our blood sugar, and so I just think that if we can even bring some logic without super sciency context, it will help people start questioning.

Speaker 4:

Maybe my autoimmune is because of my gut, maybe it's because of the foods I'm eating is not supporting me to get better, and so if I can just help people, that's why I transitioned and now we have a full time practice and so I don't spend a lot of time on social media anymore and we get to see what's really cool is we get to see the N equals, one data of you know.

Speaker 4:

We believe like a beef, salt and water fixes everything, and we noticed sometimes it doesn't always work and you might have to do some little other levers. But we get to see a lot of data and it's really cool and we know, for example, I know that the plant based world loves saying that carnivores their gut is so messed up because they don't get the short chain fatty acids. But we do stool tests in our practice and I will tell you the three main, the three main short chain fatty acids, so propionate, acetate and butyrate. They are all over that maps for carnivores. Some carnivores are low, some carnivores are super high where they look like they're eating fiber all day long and they eat zero. So I think the data is just not there. But I know people or the plant-based community believes that, oh, you need fiber to get short chain fatty acids, but it's just not true what?

Speaker 3:

oh yeah, and maybe talk a little bit more. Also in your practice, do you see people with, I guess, similar backgrounds to yours? Do you get people that are on the plant-based diet? It's not working, or you know, they're maybe making that transition, you know? Do you think you are unique?

Speaker 4:

ultimately, I guess I'll ask that I think my story is unique where I had a psychic break and there was a child involved in a lot of that. But beyond that, the depression, the eating disorder, absolutely not. I think my story is so common and that's why people can relate to me. But what I'll tell you, in our practices there are women that struggle with eating disorders. It's not the prevalent reason they're coming, and there are many carnivores that have tried plant-based.

Speaker 4:

I honestly think that the plant-based community and the carnivore community are not that different of people. I know that's probably horrendous to say to the carnivore community, but it's if we think about it. It's. We understand, whether it's plant-based or carnivore, that standard care isn't working and so we need to find a modality to make us feel better. We first hear that plant-based is better, so we try plant-based and then we're like, oh, we're also doing a good thing for society, for the climate. And then we realize soon after, hey, my body's sort of degrading. And so there are people that may stay because they supplement or they really try hard to make it work. But then a lot of people will then convert to carnivorism because it seems to help or they've heard the stories and they want that miraculous healing, and so most of our clients and patients are people that standard care no longer work for. They've been to so many different doctors, been diagnosed with so many different things, been on so many different medications and they're not getting better and they are just sick and tired of being sick and tired and so they're hoping that carnivore will fix them. And for these, this subset of people, while carnivore has helped, it's they're sort of stuck, and so they're working with us to see what else could it be.

Speaker 4:

Is it that I need to, you know, modulate the diet better? Or should I look at environment? Is there gut stuff? Is there mental health stuff? Is that trauma that I've never addressed? And and that's an area that we need to look into. And so that's the practice that we work with. But I would say that most people suffer from some level of anxiety and depression.

Speaker 4:

I mean, antidepressants are one of the most sold drugs in in the US, if not the whole world, and I just think that a lot of the research coming out more so nowadays is that it's not a serotonin issue, that we don't have enough serotonin in our brain. If that was truly the true root cause issue, everyone taking the SSRIs would be free of depression. But in actuality, more and more people are getting on it and they're not getting better. So they have to take double drugs or take different types, or take the antipsychotics and in fact I think a lot of the mood disorders are because of inflammation leaky gut, leaky brain. You know. So if you, if your body's not doing well, I assure you, your brain is not doing well.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and of course we now have, you know, increasing scientific evidence of this. We have, you know, increasing scientific evidence of this. We have, you know, of course, the great work that you know Chris Palmer has done, georgia Ede has done. You know many others. You know that we're getting the science I would say, that supports. You know, the multitude of N equal one experiences, that, of course, that we've been seeing now and it all really aligns well. So I'm certainly optimistic that this is becoming more accepted, becoming more recognized.

Speaker 3:

But of course we know we still have a long way to go and there's still a lot of challenge because this plant-based narrative has been so ingrained more so, the low-fat narrative has been so ingrained in our medical community certainly, and really in the nutritional community. That's what we're trying to overcome and so let's talk about maybe some of the ways that we're trying to overcome that. You know what's your kind of experience been? I know you said you've kind of backed away a little bit from the social media, but you know, talk about what your experiences were like on social media. You know when you say things like you know, the plant-based diet didn't work well for me and I turned to a carnivore diet.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, before I get to that, let me just say so, the way that I framed carnivore and I feel that it helps is when we don't think of it forever. So if we say you have to eat only meat for the rest of your life and so everything else out there that's food or processed food you can never touch it again, I think that scares people. So when our practice we say it's an elimination diet, so if you're not feeling well, if you have some level of symptoms, just try a carnivore diet. All other elimination diets GAPS, aip, so autoimmune protocol or paleo protocol, all of these other SCD diets, all of these other diets the FODMAP diet they focus on eliminating certain plant-based foods to see if your gut will heal. Why don't we just fast forward that or make it, you know, super expeditious? And why don't we cut out all plant-based foods and just try it for one to three months and see how you feel? And I think when people think, okay, I just need to do this for one month or two months and then see how I feel, I think it's a lot more digestible than if you were to say this is a forever thing, it's not a diet. It's a lot more digestible than if you were to say this is a forever thing. It's not a diet, it's a lifestyle. You have to do this forever.

Speaker 4:

That scares people, and my hope is that if you do it for just one to two months, you will feel a change that no one can. Then, no matter what someone says, hey, you're going to die of heart disease. You know how much better you feel, and that's when you know you have your own N equals one story. That makes it super hard to just accept that, oh, this will kill me. But how come I feel better though? How come I'm sleeping through the night now? How come my mood is more stable? How come I don't feel hangry anymore? But okay, yeah, this diet is going to kill me of heart disease. I think if somebody can experience it themselves, that will challenge any of the mainstream discussions of why this diet is so bad for you. So, with all that said, yeah, I've had my share with the plant-based community. I'd say I've been told that I get sponsored by the meat companies. I still do that.

Speaker 2:

I am sponsored by yes, Big Meat is out there.

Speaker 4:

I would love to be sponsored, but I have never received a single penny from the meat industry. But I would love to, but no, I've never. I'm not sponsored by any meat company or any meat brand. And then the plant based. So there was. I'll get just one story it was probably the worst one where I shared something plant-based and the plant-based community got really upset. I think one of the bigger influencers shared it and then it spread. They went on my Facebook and then started writing all these negative reviews. So if you go on my Facebook you can see the reviews of.

Speaker 4:

I worked with this person and she nearly killed me. There's a bunch of different and it's all the plan. And then they somebody took a step further, went on our website and then signed up and then kept saying that we spam them and then it shut down our emails, so even our sales in our website. You know, if somebody bought like a supplement or a guide from us, we couldn't even send out the email because it shut down. They opted in so many times and then said it was spam that it shut down our email. And then when we looked into it, it was like the same IP address, but it was a plant-based person, I mean it's. They're pretty intense. So I think that I just think that they're misguided.

Speaker 4:

I was plant based, so I know how much the dogma and you know the movies like earthlings and I guess nowadays it's the. You know the change makers, like you, really believe that that meat is harming people and then we're killing animals. But maybe I eat one and a half cows a year, whereas I think a lot of people don't know this. But farmers, they have to think about it when you're raising crops. There's all these animals that come that want to be fed. So deers, possums, ducks farmers have legal right to shoot an animal on site if they know that they're eating some of their crops and we don't even account for that. I think it's 2 million animals that get killed by these plant-based producers.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. In addition to the chemicals that get poured onto the genetically modified wheat fields. That could flow downstream and end up in our rivers and end up poisoning the indica. I love the regenerative farming community and regenerative ranching community. Those guys know stuff, that they're experts in fields I didn't even know existed and I love that you just expressed that. You eat one and a half cows a year.

Speaker 4:

Right.

Speaker 2:

And there aren't other animals dying, so that you cannot kill other animals. It's brilliant, it's just brilliant. Do we have time to ask Judy about? I went on our website and there seems to be a lot about seed oils. Do we have time to do that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think we can certainly get into that some.

Speaker 4:

Can I tell a real quick story about the almonds? You know, some of the arguments against cows is that you know the methane, or that they're causing a lot of the CO2 emissions or that it's just bad for the planet. And first of all, the medical industry itself is causes so much more pollution than any cow and a lot of the cows that are raised or the cattle are on lands that are barren, so there's nothing else that can be raised there and they're actually helping turn and helping fertilize the soil. In terms of I was talking specifically in the new book about water and how there's different kinds of water. So blue water is like the clean water that we can drink. Green water is rainwater and gray water is like the clean water that we can drink. Green water is rainwater and gray water is like the dirty water that you know that that just flows on the street and the while it's true that cows take water, cows blue water. So the drinking water that we would use, they barely use that water and, if anything, it's maybe on par with the amount of the amount that blue water is used for to create sugar. The plant based food that is or not food, but that is mostly used is on cotton that they use. Cotton and tea is where blue water is used the most. But I also wanted to give perspective on plant based food. So we don't think about you know, almonds are becoming so popular almond milk. And first of all, it's not a complete amino acid, so it's not a complete protein. So if you eat it you're not getting the sufficient amino acids or proteins that you need to grow and have the building blocks. One almond requires two gallons of blue water. It requires two gallons of our drinking water to create one almond.

Speaker 4:

Most of the almonds in all of the world is created in California. It is harvested in Central America, which is considered one of the dri in all of the world, is created in California. It is harvested in Central America, which is considered one of the driest places in the world, or maybe in the US. So they have to bring resources and water to that area to even raise the almonds, and not only that. So I think some people got sick not that long ago eating almonds. So now they pasteurize every single almond that comes out of there. So now they pasteurize every single almond that comes out of there.

Speaker 4:

So you think you're eating raw almonds that are just harvested and then you get to eat it. No, they pasteurize everything, so they put a chemical on it so that you may not get sick. So this is where we don't talk enough about the other side, the plant based side. And again, even if we raise cows, we are sufficiently nourished from a nutrient density perspective. You eat almonds or almond milk. You are deficient in lysine, which is one of the required amino acids in order to be sufficient with proteins, and so if you're a child and you're drinking amino almond milk with your cereal, good luck growing and being, you know, the biggest and tallest you could be. And this kind of stuff is not talked about enough. So when we say, oh, we're saving the planet by eating almonds instead of cows, I really think people should just take a look at the resources that it takes to build or to make almonds in California.

Speaker 2:

We're kind of preaching to the choir here.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, there really is just so much kind of sleight of hand we'll call it that goes into promoting, you know, the ecological benefits of, you know, these plant-based diets and really the reality and, like you said, you mentioned a very important aspect of this, which is taking care of sick people ultimately is a massive environmental drain, environmental hit, and you know, with these nutrient deficient diets we're creating more sick people ultimately, and so the net balance really doesn't work out in favor of these things. But of course, you know, there's a lot of powerful messaging behind this and there's a lot of industrial dollars that are behind this whole movement and it's a big challenge for us to overcome. It really is.

Speaker 4:

You wanted me to touch on seed oils.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, let's touch on seed oils a little bit.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I know that there's a lot more hearsay lately about the actual polyunsaturated fatty acids. I'm not as concerned about the makeup of that. I know that people say that back in the day it was like four to one, where you were eating more of the omega threes versus the omega sixes. I think what's really bad about the seed oils are they're rancid. There's a certain temperature for canola oil, for example.

Speaker 4:

First of all, it's made from a plant that is poisonous to humans. So they process the rapeseed and make it in a way that it is no longer poisonous for us. But in order for them or for us not to smell the rancidity, the color, the bleach, they deodorize, they heat this oil over six times. So think about when we always say that an oil. So if a butter's burning on the pan, it becomes black and charred and you see that smoke in the air. They're doing that six times to these oils. And then, if we use it in a food and then we heat it up in the microwave, we're also heating it again.

Speaker 4:

So the concern is that these seed oils are really releasing. There's some carcinogenic enzymes too, but the ultimate thing is they are spoiled and we can't smell. They're spoiled because they've been bleached and deodorized and done a lot of processing. But what? Every time you're eating or consuming these oils, they're causing free radicals in your system. So they're causing more inflammation in the body and at the root of all modern disease and inflammation. So again, if that leaky gut essentially it's just inflammation in the gut, so leaky gut, leaky brain, so inflammation in the brain. So every time you're eating seed oils, which is in literally everything that's processed, then you're eating, you're taking in inflammation. And if our goal is so, if we eat antioxidants to reduce inflammation, why don't we just not eat seed oil? So then we don't need as many foods that have antioxidants.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, don't create the problem. Right, exactly, exactly. Yeah, very much, true, I guess you know. As we start to wrap up, I'm going to put a little plug that Judy and I are going to be on a panel together at an upcoming conference, the Hack your Health Conference. Now, unfortunately, by the time this episode releases, that conference will have already occurred, but you will be able to go online and get the video, the archives of it, if you want to go back and watch that. But maybe let's just mention what we're going to be talking about and I think I know I'm certainly very much looking forward to it. It's going to be a great panel discussion.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I've known Robin, who's the founder of KetoCon or now Hack your Health, for many years and last year I did a women's carnivore panel and people just wanted to talk a lot about the troubleshooting side of carnivore. We hear all the wonderful stories and we know it's healing I mean, it's done miraculous things for me and this year we thought why don't we just, you know, know, open it up to the other genders? It's really a troubleshooting and triumphs of the carnivore diet. So it's not just the the healing stories, because there's so many online, but it's let's have some real talk and talk about what happens when it doesn't work. What happens if I'm constipated or I have electrolyte issues, or are you sure I don't need fiber? What if my cholesterol is too high?

Speaker 4:

And I think it's just giving a platform where people can just ask their questions where they're not entirely, when carnivore isn't entirely working, as people see online, and I think it's just giving people hope that, yeah, it doesn't always work perfectly for everyone and that's okay. I mean, even a plant-based diet, a vegan diet. Some people it works day one and some people feel a little bit better a few weeks after. It's just figuring out how do you use certain levers to improve it and not just give up, because if the alternative is going back to the standard American diet with medications, that's obviously not the right approach and maybe there's a happy medium you can get to on a carnivore diet. Maybe you have to add one planet, I don't know. But it's helping people have the ability to ask their questions.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, like I said, really looking forward to that session. Judy's leading the panel, I'll be on it. Sean Baker is going to be on it. Lisa Wiedemann is going to be on it.

Speaker 4:

And I'm forgetting who the other is. We had a change in the person. So, yeah, I think it's a keto carnivore. I'm forgetting her name, but it's keto carnivore something. But she it's. Basically, the panel is all practitioners, and so it's the people that, yes, we have our own healing stories, but we've also seen other people. We're now helping other people walk through it and we see sometimes when there's hiccups.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so people can go to hackyourhealthcom and, like I said, by the time this is out it will have already happened, but you can get the video archives and then, judy, tell people where they can find both of the books now and, if they're interested in working with you, how they can go about doing that.

Speaker 4:

Yes, all of my stuff is under Nutrition with Judy. You can find me on most big social media platforms and I have my podcast, nutrition with Judy. We talk about holistic health and then all books. You can look on Amazon. I think they're on other sites as well, but if you just look up Judy Cho Carnivore, they will come up, and if you want to work with our practice, it's nutritionwithjudycom as well.

Speaker 2:

All right, very good. As always, we'll make sure this information is in the show notes so folks can just link on it. Judy, thanks for sharing your story with us. It's these stories, more than the science, that changes lives. The science explains why it works, but there's going to be somebody who's listened today, who has been told they're broken and they have severe emotional or psychological or mental issues or bad habits that have to be broken, and it's going to be very similar to your story You're not getting enough nutrition because of the diet you've chosen. Fix the diet and everything else is going to be a whole lot easier. So thanks so much. I'm so grateful you've come through this and I appreciate your passion and applaud you for it. It's really good to hear these kind of literally life-changing, life-saving stories that are simply the result of eating the right food.

Speaker 4:

I know, I know it sounds so simple, but it's so true. Thank you so much for both having me. It was such a fun conversation.

Speaker 2:

All right For Judy Cho and Dr Philip Ovedia. This has been the Stay Off my Operating Table podcast. Join us next time. We're looking forward to talking with you. Rating table podcast.

Speaker 1:

Join us next time we're looking forward to talking with you. We'll see you then. Chances are you wouldn't be listening to this podcast if you didn't need to change your life and get healthier. So take action right now. Book a call with Dr Avedia's team. One small step in the right direction is all it takes to get started. Contact us at ifixheartscom slash talk. That's ifixheartscom slash talk.

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Dr. Philip Ovadia

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